EP. 96 How To Survive & Thrive In The Current State Of Ecommerce

Trevor: Yo , what's going on everybody ? Welcome to the Unstoppable Marketer Podcast . With me , as always , is Mark Goldheart , my lovely , courageous I don't know why I said courageous co-host .

Mark: Hey , I'll take it , I'll take courageous .

Trevor: How are you ? You're on your phone texting .

Mark: Yeah , I am .

Trevor: Texting me .

Mark: I'm looking something , looking something up .

Trevor: How was your ?

Mark: weekend . How was my weekend ? I don't know . Iting me , I'm looking something , yeah , looking something up . How was your weekend ? How was my weekend ? I don't know . It was sad . My wife was supposed to get home on Thursday . Oh , that's right she lost her keys , and she lost her car keys and never found them . Never know . So I had to mail .

Trevor: At her family's house , which is four hours away from us ? Yes , she was at her family's house , which is four hours away from us . Yes , with your kids . My kids , she'd already been gone for how many , how long ?

Mark: She'd been gone for two weeks , but I was down there for six days , yeah , hanging out , so in between , but you were anticipating seeing them . On Thursday and then they didn't get home until Tuesday because they had to wait for the mail to get to this tiny town .

Trevor: Wait , you couldn't have just overnighted Express . Then I did and it took that many days . Yeah , because I did it on Friday morning , oh , and then you had the weekend .

Mark: And it didn't get there because they only deliver there until Saturday at noon .

Trevor: Oh , okay .

Mark: It didn't get there . So it didn't get there until Monday afternoon , and we have a one-year-old , so at that point it's like you can't really leave until the next day .

Trevor: But they're back now . They're back Nice . So I got my family back . I'm happy for you . Yeah , that would be a bummer .

Mark: Yeah .

Trevor: That would be a bummer .

Mark: But more relevant to the nation is there was an assassination attempt . That was crazy .

Trevor: Absolutely crazy .

Mark: Wild .

Trevor: Yeah , suspicious . Even I've been down rabbit holes , like you wouldn't believe , for the last three days . Because what was it on Saturday ?

Mark: Yeah , saturday .

Trevor: It was Saturday because we were swimming and I looked at my phone and got a notification and was telling everybody but yeah , there's some craziness .

Mark: Yeah , that's pretty crazy . Yeah , I've gotten full blown conspiracy once in a lifetime event , I guess . I guess the last one was Reagan in the eighties . Yeah , survived , um so the last attempt on a on a president or presidential candidate maybe .

Trevor: Yeah , I think the .

Mark: Senator got shot at a baseball game like four years ago .

Trevor: Years ago , yeah um , this was something that I thought was very interesting . So , um , jack black , you heard this yes you know , yes , you know , who jack black is , or ? Yes , you've heard what I'm about to say yes oh , yes , okay , well , to the audience then , jack Black .

Mark: Oh , do you want me to act ? I have no idea . You're supposed to pretend like you don't know what I'm talking about Jack Black , who is the .

Trevor: yes , he's an actor , but many people don't know this . He is in a band called Tenacious D . Many people don't know that . I think a lot of people don't know that .

Mark: What I would venture to say , that I think more people don't know that than do .

Trevor: Okay , boys , are you lit up ? Did you know that Jack Black was in a band ? Yeah , oh , nuts , did you ?

Mark: Nope , ah , I did not know that . All right , who didn't know ?

Trevor: that ? No , I did not know that . Nate didn't know that . Nate didn't know that . How old are you guys ?

Mark: 22 , 21 , 22 , I'm 21 , yeah okay , I guess people don't know that do you know the first ?

Trevor: what do you just ?

Mark: know him from .

Trevor: Like Kung Fu Panda , you're little 21 yeah let's see he had some like viral music video a while ago , right ? Yeah , I guess with the surgence of TikTok , I think a lot of people know who Jack Black is .

Mark: But do you know ? But you guys have never seen like school of rock no , really I saw the beginning of that .

Trevor: I'm pretty sure I saw I'm seeing the national anthem like oh he sings , you know .

Mark: But so I first wow I first saw jack black .

Trevor: How I discovered that he was a part of tenacious d was in high school . I mean he's been a part of this band for . I mean I've been graduated for 15 years . Hold on Parental Advisory it's a pretty raunchy comedy band . Yeah , but he's a great singer . Like they're good music . He's a very talented musician , but I first heard about him I think this was back before Jimmy Fallon had the Tonight Show and it was Jay Leno and or David Letterman . Yeah , before it was Kimmel and Fallon . And I knew Jack Black through School of Rock and I'm sure one of the other ones that he's been a part of funny movies . Was it old school ? No , it's not an old school . That's Will Ferrell . What's the one in Orange County ? Oh yeah , it's not an old school .

Mark: That's Will Ferrell . What's the one in Orange County ?

Trevor: Oh yeah , it's called Orange County .

Mark: Oh , it's Orange County .

Trevor: It's called Orange County yeah , that's a great one , but anyways , I was just watching it with my parents They'd watch it all like the late show always and he was performing and he had flames painted on his belly and it was just this like crazy guy singing the song . I'm like that guy looks just like jack black . That's so crazy . And then my dad and I were watching . He's like that is jack black , it's like what . And then I like listened to his album and yeah , in high school , you're right as raunchy anyways so tenacious d it's , it's just two band members , so I'm just hilarious listening to news anchors say tenacious D . Yeah , yeah . So anyways , it's too bad . It's just a guy who plays the guitar , very rarely says anything and sings . His name is . What is his name ? Why can't I think of it ?

Mark: Kyle Glass .

Trevor: Kyle and it was Kyle's birthday . They're on tour right now and they brought out a cake and he said make a wish , ask him what his wish was , or something like that . And he said next time don't miss in reference to being bummed out that Donald Trump didn't get hit . Didn't get hit , yeah , or or didn't he got hit but didn't get hit where they were hoping he'd get , because they're both kind of openly non-Trump fans , just like every celebrity is .

Mark: Yeah .

Trevor: Right , and so Jack Black canceled his entire tour because of it . Like so much backlash . And now , like Kyle and Jack Black , who've been a part of Tenacious D , probably since you'd have to fact check this , but if I had to bet , I bet they've been around since 2003 .

Mark: I was gonna say one , or maybe even 1998 .

Trevor: I mean , maybe they've been around for a long time but like maybe their first album , first Tenacious D album 2003 . Maybe 2002 .

Mark: I couldn't tell you because we I discovered them in junior high .

Trevor: I discovered them , I think , my sophomore year , which would have been like 2001 , 2002 . Yeah , I think sophomore year for me was 2004 .

Mark: But nonetheless this , you know what's interesting about that , from a marketing perspective , is A don't gloat about assassination attempts , I guess , or wish them on people for one .

Trevor: Obvious . That's pretty obvious . Don't do that .

Mark: But B ? What I heard was and the reason why it's interesting to maybe uncover this a little bit is because a lot of times you'll see a brand fail . Let's just use this as an example of a marketing gone wrong . Something bad happened and now they they've failed and they can't continue , right , so people can look at that and say , oh , it's because of the backlash and and whatever . But my bet is that there's probably a lot of people that still would have gone and seen them , irregardless of what they said . For sure , okay , so they were pressured into it , um , but what ?

Trevor: I . They were pressured into what give it like splitting not split .

Mark: I don't think they split . It's just like they had to cancel and they have to recalibrate , whatever you want to call it . I'm not trying to judge these people either . Like people say dumb things in the heat of moments , trying to be like they're funny , they're supposed to be a comedy band and so um yeah , you know that comedians are going to come out and make the same joke and they'll be OK with it in this , in the yeah .

Trevor: In the spirit of comedy .

Mark: Like you know , I don't know if they actually wish that or not , it's just you don't say that , but anyways , nonetheless , what I heard is , if you actually open up the hood and figure out why they're canceling , open up the hood and figure out why they're canceling ? It's because , from what I've read online is these event spaces have to have some kind of insurance policies for when people come in and you have to cover X amount of people , right , and you have to take into consideration what other threats are coming in , and so , because of the backlash that they received , these insurance companies are not willing to cover their concerts .

Trevor: Interesting . So it looks like it's Jack Black saying we can't work together .

Mark: But someone else said if you know the event space , you know that what this really is . It's just like they're unbookable right now . Yeah , interesting , because the insurance premiums are going to be so high to cover their , their events , because of threats that have been made to them , just because of the lightning rod situation that they've created , that they don't . Insurance companies just don't want to cover those event spaces you knew more than I did . The reason why that's interesting is because a lot of times , brands are struggling , companies are struggling and on the outside you can make assumptions as to why and , by the way , this is still in a , you know , we're still making an assumption here . I don't know that this is for sure , the verifiable truth that jack black and tenacious d canceled their their tour , but uh , well , we know they canceled .

Trevor: We don't know if that is exactly .

Mark: Well , yeah , exactly why they cancelled . And the same thing happens with marketing companies and marketing in companies and companies in general . You can make assumptions about why a company is or isn't doing well , but when you open up the hood , it could be a completely different reason than what you are assuming it is . For sure . I like that , like oh , it's easy to like go , oh , it's that reason . Yeah , this is why , and yes , like it's still related , like that comment created the insurance , but it's not the the backlash to the comment .

Trevor: Right , it's not that made them cancel , it's the backlash to the insurance yeah , because what it sounds like what , what they make it , what they the articles that I read , the they make it sound like the mob got to them yeah , the backlash , and that's why they're like oh , like we .

Mark: We're so sorry , we didn't make sense .

Trevor: When was tenacious d started , you guys did you guys get it ? Yeah , um , it says it started in 1969 .

Mark: No wait , 1994 , 1994 , wow , wrong year . That makes sense , though , because I think he was doing that before he got big in the acting scene . Oh , really also interesting jack black's mom is a nasa engineer also interesting .

Trevor: my brother-in-law , who will never listen to this podcast , made it into , was it ? What is the magazine ? Um , what is the big Rolling Stone ? My brother-in-law made it into the Rolling Stone magazine as a lookalike to Jack Black . Oh , that's hilarious , yeah .

Mark: Does he look like him ? Yes , still .

Trevor: I mean if he grew his hair out and beard longer , he definitely could pull it off .

Mark: Put on some more LBs .

Trevor: Yeah , he definitely could pull it off . But yeah , he submitted it back like in like 2009 or 2008 yeah and got into I think it was rolling stone magazine so , but on the marketing front , yeah , let's , let's we read to yeah we read an interesting going on like brands failing or failures , as an actor , business business , yep .

Mark: There was an interesting article recently that came out in Modern Retail talking about zombie brands . Fire cells and quiet closures are plaguing the D2C world , yep .

Trevor: So zombie brands definition , Should we give a definition of these things ?

Mark: Yeah , give a definition of it .

Trevor: So the way the article describes brands like this are brands that may have been succeeding at one point in time , had really big growth , great valuations , and then they hit a wall . They may have taken on money as well .

Mark: A lot of them have taken on money as well .

Trevor: These brands often have taken on money at these high valuations , and and when we say high valuations , it was probably what I think peak valuations were 2020 , 2020 . Yeah like right around covid ish times there were maybe 2019 ? yeah , brands that were getting massive valuations um and , and oftentimes massive valuations not based off of profitability , correct , but just off of , sometimes , revenue growth or new customer acquisition , um , or I shouldn't say just off of that um , those things weighed more into the decision um and the brand versus like , how profitable the brand was at the time . So brands like uh you know there's a lot of brands like uh outdoor voices was one of them casper the mattress company all birds uh warby warby parker you know these brands that had these amazing , amazing brands stories , um , but had such high acquisition costs that have either since gone under or not even they're not producing really anymore . So a zombie brand is like somebody who was excelling . High valuations and then over the past few years those valuations have not panned out and they've went kind of from peak down to lower , lower , lower .

Mark: The brands , or these people who've invested in them , are no longer really getting or there really is no return in sight for them yeah , and a zombie brand could also be on a smaller scale , just a brand that's maybe appears like it's still alive and well , but it's actually just a dead man walking . Yeah , not necessarily just because of valuations , just because they're not making money anymore . Yeah , right , right now it's , it's sinking and they don't know how to get out of it . Yeah , so they might be treading water , but yeah , treading water with crocodiles circling in on them , yeah .

Trevor: Like the Peter Pan ride . Where Hook is in Disneyland . He's like right between the crocodile . His feet are on the crocodile's mouth as it's opening up . Have you been on the Peter Pan ride At Disney ?

Mark: Is it new ?

Trevor: No .

Mark: I have no memory of the Peter Pan ride at Disney .

Trevor: It's the most iconic ride at Disney . Besides , maybe it's a small world .

Mark: What Guaranteed ? The most iconic ride at Disney .

Trevor: Absolutely Longest ride at Disney . Longest line at Disney . Longest line at Disney the Peter Pan ride Outside I guess I shouldn't say that the new Star Wars one always has a bigger line the Peter Pan ride , which is just a little dinky kid ride , the most iconic . I would say it's the most iconic as a Disneyland lover . I don't know how you can fact check that , because that's an opinion . But that would be a soundb I don't know how you can fact check that , because that's an opinion , but we I have not been to Disneyland and we will see how . I bet that will be the most viewed reel I put out in the next well , I have not been to Disneyland in 25 years . Just go wait man , that line is always like an hour long . You're probably right , but when ?

Mark: I think of disneyland . I'm like the peter pan rides , the most iconic , like not .

Trevor: I guess splash mountain doesn't exist anymore yeah not the indiana jones ride I mean the other two that would be more like on the more iconic would be space mountain or space mountain those would be the only other two that could compete with it , really for sure , and so there's good argument . I would , though , say , actually the most iconic is it's a small world , because everyone knows that song and but the longest yeah it's the . It's the longest ride . It's the longest overrated ride I would agree with .

Mark: it's a small world , like you know , that ride .

Trevor: Everyone knows that People who've never been to Disneyland can sing that song .

Mark: Yeah , but but the yeah , I have no recollection . Or Pirates of the Caribbean , isn't ? I mean , it's great , they're all great . More iconic than the Peter Pan ? No , it's not but there's a all these are about , about the cartoons , well , I know , but I'm just saying I think , all right , we've gone down the road .

Trevor: I think the reference is the cartoon .

Mark: Anyways , Peter .

Trevor: Pan , anyways . So we're bringing this up because I also saw like a LinkedIn post a couple days ago and it was just this guy who had just there's this . You know , he's a like talking head in the e-commerce space . I won't say his name , not that I think it matters , but , um , he had just , he had a , he had a brand and he just had to close his doors down . Um , he owns a marketing agency , but he was just kind of posing this question , saying , like how many brands have you seen close your door , close their doors down in 2024 ? And it was crazy . You know , like some linkedin posts , usually what happens in just like social media posts in general is you always have more likes than you do comments . But like this one , it was just like comments galore of just people saying my brands or OX brand . You know , it's just so . It's just like the state of e-commerce is interesting right now . So what do you do ? Right , there's tons of brands going under . So what do you do ? There's tons of brands going under .

Mark: Well , I think , first and foremost , it's important to zoom out a little bit and just realize that the state of the economy is interesting right now . So D2C is just one subset of the economy and it touches a lot of facets of the economy .

Trevor: but but there's some Also . Let's talk about that too . But there's some , there's some , but also like let's , let's talk about that too , but there's some uniqueness to the d2c space too yeah , there's also . So it's like , yes , the overall economy is struggling and prices are up , but there are some industries , verticals , whatever , whatever that won't struggle right .

Mark: Yeah yeah , I mean like grocery stores , you know because you're talking about like necessities .

Trevor: Yeah , there's , there's , I mean even non-necessities , like I think . I read an article I cannot quote it , but like the beauty cosmetic industry is is better than it's ever been um that I believe botox , because people plastic surgery hair tiktok . You know it's like instagram reels is really blowing up that category there are things like that that , like theoretically , you shouldn't be , that shouldn't be growing right now , because it is not a necessity , but people are treating it as as if it is .

Mark: But it's interesting when you take a step back and think about you know , yeah it , yeah , it's great . It's great , like the whole mental health awareness thing . You know , um , it's good that there's awareness . However , um , it's interesting how self-care has now been elevated to a need and a justified expense , when in the past it would not have been for sure , because you can justify it on the basis of , like , my mental health , oh yeah and it's probably a lot of the narrative right , which is a good thing too right , because there has been like there is a good argument to make that like well , it can and can't be .

Trevor: Yeah , I know .

Mark: Like we're not here to make a judgment .

Trevor: This is just like what it is talking about mental health , especially for things like you know , even like six , seven years ago for me , like that's when I first started , like that's when we launched Asher golf and I was getting like four hours of sleep a night , that was like a celebrated thing . Like I tell people that story , and even me , like Kenzie , that's my wife she would be like you got to sleep more and I'd be like what are you talking about ? Like I am crushing it right now , Like I am working a nine to five job . I'm taking five years off my life and then I am like I'm working till 2 am every single day , crushing it on this other new thing that's gonna you know , and I like that was like such a symbol such a flex oh yeah , like I thought I was so cool yeah and it just killed me . I mean killed my health , legitimately killed my health . I got six in 18 months . I got the strep throat six times and I went to my . I went to my doctor , who was also my uncle and he's like one more time and we got to get your tonsils out . He's like that's usually the rule . It's like five or six times in a year and you have to get your tonsils out . You're donezo and he's like and you do not want to ever mess with that as an adult it Threading . But sucks . It's like it's a terrible surgery . So sorry , we were like we're in rabbit holes . Well , I'm glad you made it out . Here I am and now I'm getting a solid eight .

Mark: But it's just interesting to think about how you can , from a branding or marketing slant , talk about self-care in a way that might be a little bit more on the superficial side , but like frame it as justified as that is justified because you need to take care of yourself . Yeah , you gotta take care of yourself .

Trevor: A hundred percent emotion justification .

Mark: That's interesting , yeah , so what should brands ?

Trevor: be doing . Right , that's what . That's where we want to get to . Guys , stick around with us . We've been down the rabbit holes . We want to talk about like well , we've been down the rabbit holes . We want to talk about like well , what ? What are some things that brands can do to avoid the hole they could find themselves in ? Or maintain sorry , hold up , not maintain get out of the hole that they're in , or ride maybe a little bit of a wave to then get to a better buying season , because we also understand that summer is not the best buying season for most , most brands . There's definitely some brands that excel in the summer , but most of the time you get summer lulls , reason being because the primary purchaser in a house is generally a woman and these people are oftentimes it's just supply , demand .

Mark: Like people are just bus . It's just supply and demand . People are just busier in the summer they're busier .

Trevor: In the summer they're on vacation . They got kids in the home running around .

Mark: Ironically , people are busier in the summer .

Trevor: From a how you shop Just from an activity perspective . And I notice it on my bill , my bill . I manage the finances and I can see my wife's credit card spending drops dramatically once June hits More activity .

Mark: Yeah , kids are home , yeah .

Trevor: So from a family perspective , mine goes up . I even think for people without kids , you're going on vacations , you're traveling , you're enjoying the summer .

Mark: You're camping or whatever . So I just think you're not stuck in a house , or ?

Trevor: building . So you've got time of year .

Mark: Right now , you've got three things that are impacting brands , I think , and you might say there's more okay , but the supply-demand we were talking about is just the amount of people on social at any given moment .

Trevor: Yes , so the three things that I think are impacting brands right now is you've got the macro , the biggest thing , which is the economy Right , economy is struggling , infl . Right now is you got the macro , the biggest thing , which is the economy right , economy is struggling . Inflation is up . If you're spending 40 , what did you see that ? Did you see that one tiktok video of that dude who walmart the walmart dude ? So we might have to stitch this in it , but those stitch it . This walmart guy , he uh , I don't want , he's not a walmart guy , a customer of walmart who shops a guy online . Yeah , uh , apparently there's this feature in your like previous orders that you can say buy again . And it was . Was it like two years ago , three years ago ? Three years ago he had bought it was like $102 worth of groceries and he clicked reorder and it was like $450 . So we caught up , like up like 400% . So you have this like macro piece that it's like hey 200% .

Mark: Neither here nor there .

Trevor: Yes , you're right , I apologize , thank you .

Mark: Approximately like $250 .

Trevor: Yeah you have this macro piece that's just happening , where it's like , hey , there's just less money in people's bank accounts to be spending on frivolous things , and oftentimes in the d2c space I shouldn't say frivolous things , non-essentials and oftentimes in the d2c space .

Mark: The majority of the stuff is theoretically non-essential , right these even though I need shoes , these nikes are non-essential right , right , I need a pair of shoes , like you could clean them or you could get .

Trevor: Yeah , I could go to Target and I can get $20 shoes versus these $100 shoes or whatever .

Mark: Or you could just use the old ones and clean them , or I could just use yeah , exactly until they have holes in them , yeah , so but are still suffering yeah , exactly , so it's nice to know that they're not the only ones suffering .

Trevor: 100 yep , then you got seasonality summer , yeah it's harder , okay , and then you have something that kind of ties into seasonality and macro , which is the presidential election , and that's going to impact things , right , yeah , so , um , oftentimes just from a one , dependent upon what happens an assassination attempt , gas prices going up , something political , oftentimes people it does seem like there's some black swan events that always happen on election years , always always . I mean covet , assassination attempts , I mean you name it , whatever . But so , but nonetheless if you're a brand , it's like , okay , it's nice to know .

Mark: I zoom out . I know that people are struggling , like me , but like they still got to figure out how to win . So what if I told you there's brands that are not suffering right now ?

Trevor: Tell me .

Mark: Well , I will . Well , first of all , let's take a step back . Well , first of all , let's take a step back . We we know the stories personally of brands that would be classified as like a zombie brand right now , or brands that have gone under or have really struggled over the last three , four years , and I I think it would be beneficial for the listener to know why a lot of those brands are turned into a zombie brand or died Okay Brands that were seemingly on top in 2018 , 19 . Yes , okay , so we already took the investment one . A lot of people took investment . They were trying to get returns .

Trevor: They overextended , they were over , and then they came down . Their overvaluation almost killed them , yeah .

Mark: Right . But you also have brands that were not necessarily in that kind of investment situation , or a smaller investment or no investment , that are still the walking dead or dead , and I think it'd be important to say , hey , why , why ?

Trevor: What happened ? Why were they on ?

Mark: top of the world in 2018 ? Seemingly we're growing . They're going great 2016 , 17 , 18 . And then why did so many hit ?

Trevor: plateaus come 19 , 20 , 21? . Do you want to give a stab at that , or do you want me to ?

Mark: I was presenting that to you . I thought that was a softball for you .

Trevor: It is a softball . Well , I mean , I think that both of us have Just throwing it up for you . I think that both of us have very similar answers , but I think we're both going to approach it differently , which is what I think we generally usually do , why we're such great co-hosts together Great , my thought . Just one of the things is in 2016 , 17 , 18 , 19 even though pay to play year was 2018 , right , 2016 , 17 , 18 , 19, . You know , like you're still even though what pay to play year was ? 2018 , right . That was algorithm year , where everything changed .

Mark: That was the year that just free reach and uh , you know my Instagram used to be chronological , more chronological . Yeah , chronologically it was a chronological feed .

Trevor: Pretty much You're seeing . If you get on anyone you're following you're gonna see what they're posting .

Mark: Yeah , so somebody . So if somebody's posting a lot every day , you would see their posts top of mind every time you log in .

Trevor: It'd be one of the first three four yeah , so people just would post seven times a day and just to let every listeners know who you know , we've talked about this a lot , but like I was a cmo during this time and I remember like I would just be like hey , you know , guys , we haven't made , you know , revenues down today . Will somebody post ? Like it was , it was as easy as that . It's like , hey , somebody just post , will you like hurry and get a picture up and post , and then all of a sudden revenue would shoot up like an extra five thousand dollars . Right , cool , sweet , nice , hey , let's get . Like you know , will you post it like eight o'clock tonight , let's see if we can get another couple grand . Like you , that's , you can't really do that now . Like that's not how . There's some brands who are dominating on TikTok who can do things like that . Um , but it's it's not as not as common Right . So , though , these brands who are 2014 to 2019 , you know , kind of started they , they had really dominant success riding on the coattails of just social media being easier . I think that I read yesterday that , no , no , I actually have to look this up because if I don't , I'm going to , I'm going to miss , I'm going to say the , the , the stat incorrectly here . Uh , there's this guy who I follow , who just like , does Instagram . Uh , you know , he talks about how to be better on Instagram yeah , it might have been a story anyways . I think that his story said a hundred million new posts happen every day , wow , or something like that . It's a sea , yeah , so it's like a sea of content . It's crazy , and I can't remember if that was across all platforms or across , but whether it's just on instagram or you know .

Mark: So that's what you're up against , you know , but it wasn't like that in 2018 , 2019 so to to put that more clearly , I think a lot of brands understood how the algorithm worked back then . Yeah , because the algorithm was just . It wasn't really an algorithm , it was just chronological feed based off who you were following . There wasn't , you know , this incentive to try to capture attention in the same kind of way . So I think people followed the playbook of the platform better . Yes , yes , it's gotten harder . I'm not trying to say it hasn't gotten harder , but to just put this in like a framework . People were following what the platform wanted them to do , yep , and they were doing it . And then the platform started changing what it wanted you to do . Right , it started prioritizing videos and with the video , introduction and paid ads but with those two things it also what people's tastes started changing .

Trevor: Absolutely yeah .

Mark: So so they were following what the platform wanted and they were giving people what the taste was at the time , which was curated , aspirational , which still works . For some brands Like this is all brand , independent or brand dependent Sure , sure , sure . Then people's chase , so people were following it , but then they started giving people what their tastes weren't anymore , as people started shifting .

Trevor: Yeah , I mean , in a nutshell , tldr of what I'm saying , because I'm realizing that I'm taking forever to answer your question . People just have not been willing to change . That's my opinion . These zombie brands't have not been willing to change like that . That's my opinion . These zombie brands , like people , have not been willing I shouldn't say change , adapt . Yes , right , what a lot of them have done is changed their roots . Have you noticed that ? Hey , I my . You know my customer used to be you , but since things aren't working , I have to do something else .

Mark: So , like , what a lot of people will do is like things got hard because the algorithm changed and people's tastes have started changing , but I'm thinking that people don't like my product anymore , so now I need to change who I am .

Trevor: So let's say I'm a women's brand , for example , I'm going to now go into men's and I'm going to take my core team off of serving the current marketing market that we're winning with and put more time , energy , resources , capital into trying to get men , but not putting enough of what I need into it and not doing it great and then losing you know you saw brands like you saw brands like in 2020 and 2021 , like , uh , madewell did that and it really hurt them . Uh , you saw and Madewell at that like Madewell was at its peak probably in 2020 , like no woman you know was getting their jeans from anywhere else but Madewell . It seemed like you know , or maybe Nordstrom .

Mark: So it seemed like that .

Trevor: Yeah , oh yeah , my , my wife was one of them , for sure , um , but now , like I can't remember the last time my wife went to madewell and got jeans when madewell was known as the jean mecca for women , for women , okay , um , uh , what , what was it ? Uh , athleta was , was also one of these brands , and they went to hill , hill city , they created hill city , um , and athleta was at its peak in the like athleisure performance before lululemon was kind of like , really , really really getting super peaky , and they put hill city and that went under . And now , like , I don't hear much about athleta either . Not that there's a madewell still a great brand , I'm sure , and and so is athleta , like , you see them in the malls and you see ads for them , but I don't , I don't know how great they're doing Compared to yeah , at that time .

Mark: Yeah , so you've got people who weren't willing to adapt in how they communicated .

Trevor: Yep , and some of people took the lack of adaption by saying , hey , maybe we've hit our product lifecycle , let's change what we're doing , let's go somewhere else . So I think there's two different ways , and or both Correct . They discarded their current audience and they weren't willing to adapt to how people consumed media .

Mark: Yes .

Trevor: TLDR .

Mark: So TLDR people just refused to adapt and change the way the algorithm wanted you to be uploading and producing certain kinds of content , and they weren't delivering the tastes that people had adapted to .

Trevor: Exactly .

Mark: And TikTok is also a big influence in that the way people consume on TikTok changed a lot of the type of content people wanted to consume when on social yeah , you went from polished curation . Yes , right , snapchat also .

Trevor: Yeah , polished curation yes , right , snapchat also yeah , yep , you went from very polished curation to I'm not wearing makeup . My face is in front of a screen . Let me tell you a really interesting story about me that for most people wouldn't think would be an interesting story .

Mark: Yeah .

Trevor: An interestingly mundane story Right , that all of a sudden people are like ah , we've talked about this , like TikTok was just more fun .

Mark: Yeah , I think at its core . Yeah , it was more fun and that bled into Instagram and a lot of brands did not know how to adapt to a more fun aesthetic . So adapting is the biggest thing , I would say , I agree , and discarding your core audience Is another one At the center of this , the brands that we have seen that have , by the way , it's not that they didn't go through any struggle , the brands that we have Talked to and worked with , but they really honed in on the messages and the content and who and who they are Serving Right and who they are serving . We talked about this a couple episodes ago with niching down . Niching down often helps you expand , not contract .

Trevor: Expand by growth . Growth yes .

Mark: The more specific you are , the better you will be served . Yes , oftentimes , as long as you are doing something good for that niche and solving problems , you will be served , yes , oftentimes , oftentimes .

Trevor: As long as you're doing , as long as you are doing something good for that niche and solving problems .

Mark: Yeah , because I think this goes back to basic marketing 101 . If you're looking at what your like total addressable market is , let's niche down really quick and talk about a specific type of customer . So we've talked about , like motorcycles or e-bikes . Let's take . Let's take e-bikes , but more specifically the e-bike , not not like a mountain bike that also is an e-bike , but just like a full e-bike , basically a motocross , but with a battery e-moto , an e-moto . So let's take an e- . Okay , who are the people that are buying that ? Well , a lot of companies would say Everyone , everyone , every adult is my audience . It's like well , let's go down further . Like , who's going to be the audience that's mostly interested in this ? Like , who are you going to actually be able to address about this ? Yes , every adult might have fun on one , but there is X percent of the population that will not get on a motorcycle type . Yeah , yeah , maybe you start with bike at all period , so they're gone right , then you've got a lot of people that might just be like yeah , that , like that looks fun , but I'm not really interested . So so you go all the way down and you're gonna wind up with like 18 to 40 year old men . Yeah , I mean you could also that are going to be the most interested in it .

Trevor: Let me , let me also just take one more layer too .

Mark: You could say families , because families love to bike ride , so every anyone who's a family you can say that , but again , but , once again I'm saying that's not it , I'm just saying that every family should have one .

Trevor: That could be another . Okay , cool . Okay , if it's not everybody , maybe it's every family . Okay , if it's not every family , maybe it's people who like motocross .

Mark: It's dirt biking families . People , families , who are into riding motorcycles , and I can tell you right now people in that demographic are going to be conservative leaning , typically suburbs or rural communities , for sure , right , like there's heavier subsets in different geographic regions . But like now you have a niche , yeah , where you're addressing , like you know who this person is , yeah , and the people that spend money on these things . So now you have to address them , yep , but yes , again like oh , everyone could ride one .

Trevor: They're fun .

Mark: They're really fun , yeah , sure , but that's not , obviously it's not realistic , right ? And if you're talking to everyone and you're just showing , uh , I don't know , like a businessman driving a , his e-bike to work to save the environment , like you're not going to sell a lot , yeah , or just somebody on a mate on a road , like just even if it is your market , like even if it's a 20 year old kid or Emoto .

Trevor: Sorry , you know . You know , even if it's a 20 year old kid with an American flag hat on riding on the street still might not work Right . Might not work , but you're getting closer .

Mark: You're starting to get a little closer , yeah .

Trevor: Right , so I like that Niching down is one way that .

Mark: Because you want an American hat and a mullet .

Trevor: Yes , yes , and some pit vipers and some pit fibers , exactly right . And then a tank top , tank top with like a scantily clad girl in a bikini and you're gonna probably attract a lot more people that are interested in yeah that in your product .

Mark: So the point is is like if you niche down , it doesn't you're actually going to be able to sell more generally speaking , so the companies that have been able to adjust is they focused on who their core customer is and they adjusted their content strategy to be more personal .

Trevor: Yeah .

Mark: And relatable to that person .

Trevor: Yeah , and one way , just to let everybody know , like one way you can do this , to feel like , if you're not already talking to your customers , somehow you should . I mean there's way you can do this to feel like , if you're not already talking to your customers , somehow you should . I mean , there's tools you can do that . There's also just like , whether you're just like looking at your reviews to seeing how people talk , or looking at dms , or looking at comments , or you know , there's ways that you can just start to understand um , and you can even utilize ai to put some of that information into AI that can then pick out commonalities , um , um , or , like I said , you can use tools , uh , like bestie , that that allows you to survey customers , uh , to ask them questions like hey , like , what do you like to do ? Who are you ? Who do you ? Who did you vote for ? Like you could you could ask questions like hey , who are you most willing to vote ? Like you could , you could ask questions like hey , who are you most willing to vote ? Like you , yeah , vote for . To understand political affiliations . You could . You can ask anything and people can just skip it if they don't want to answer it right . So there are several ways for you to figure out who your customer is , whereas you used to may say women between the ages 25 and 50 . I remember back when we were on the brand side , that used to be how we think we were selling bags to women and our audience was like 18 to 50 year olds . And then , as we started asking people questions as simple as what's your age , we actually found out that our customer was 25 to 35 . So every ad we created was always somebody within that age range . Every , you know , every message was to somebody who is , you know , if it was a pop cultural reference , it was somebody who's going to understand things between 25 and 35 versus somebody who is going to be . We weren't talking about Brady Bunch , right , we were talking about you know , yeah , exactly , full house , right . So there's several ways you can understand who your customer is outside of just guesswork . This podcast episode is brought to you by Bestie . Bestie is the first ever AI powered post purchase survey platform . Bestie is revolutionizing the way you understand your customers . Are you uncertain about what motivates your customers to choose your products , unsure how customers are discovering your brand or which marketing channels are most effective in driving sales to your website ? Or do you know how long it takes your customers to make a purchase decision ? Look no further , because Bestie is the ultimate solution for you . With Bestie's cutting edge AI feature , you can effortlessly create comprehensive surveys in just a matter of seconds , without the need for any of your valuable time . And that is not all . Bestie's automated insights will regularly provide you with actionable information , week over week , giving you the tools to drive your business forward . Now , with the holiday season in full swing , there is no better time to start gathering valuable customer data . Bestie is offering an exclusive 30% discount for Q4 , alongside a 14-day free trial . Do not miss out on this opportunity to supercharge your business and truly get to know your customers . As e-commerce owners and agency owners ourselves , we use Bestie every single day to help us make better decisions on how we communicate , acquire and grow our customers . Visit Bestie AI or check out appsshopifycom . Forward slash Bestie today to secure your Q4 pricing . Don't wait start making data-driven decisions with Bestie today .

Mark: The third thing I was going to bring up is it's interesting to think that I think , in because of the growth of D2C , you had a lot of brands that were created , and we've noticed this with some of those zombie brands . Right , they were created , but the founders or owners or CEOs started taking this approach of , like , this is just something that we're trying to flip and sell . Yeah , so they prioritized a certain type of growth over all else . Yeah , instead of trying to create a lasting brand , which is , of course , paradoxically , totally the one that you're going to be able to sell for the most , yeah , yeah , like I always think people , everyone points out oh , I want to be like a Nike , but I don't think Nike operated as a . I think we're going to flip this in five years .

Trevor: Right , yeah , it's a good point . That's a really good point .

Mark: I think Phil Knight was trying to build a dynasty , so to speak , a monopoly . He was trying to create a behemoth and dominate the sports market . I don't think he was operating in a five-year mindset .

Trevor: No , no . And in order to do that right to , rather than be sales focused , because there's a happy medium , right , it's like you have to get sales , so you have to go for those immediate yes , you want sales yes , because it's . It's what keeps the brand going , especially if you're self-funded , right . If you're not self-funded , that's different , right , you can put all the money and time and attention . So the question is like how is , how do you sell and how do you build a brand ? What did Nike do to become the brand it is ? And they invest .

Mark: Back in the 80s . Yeah , they took on investment and then eventually they did sell . They IPO'd , which is technically you're selling , but in the 80s and 90s to me .

Trevor: I always go back to content creation , and that's what brands need to be figuring out . Yeah , um , both paid and organic side of things , and the the content creation game for nike back then was so different than what content creation is today content creation for them and what you know . Yes , they had money to do it , but it was getting athletes wearing their shoes . But before , like before , they had a lot of money , they were getting Olympic athletes who were running in Nikes without being paid a cent .

Mark: Well , right , but again you got to remember , and I think it's important to think about the Nike story in this way Nike started as a running company Period . That's Nike's roots . It's with Steve Prefontaine and correct me if I'm wrong , Bill Bowerman and still is Was the Oregon coach .

Trevor: It still is , to their root , a running company . I mean , they're much bigger than that , but I still think that they were . I don't think anyone thinks of them as a running company anymore . Maybe not with the . There has been a ? Is deluge the right word ? There's been a deluge of running companies who've come out . Did I use that correctly ?

Mark: I don't even know that word .

Trevor: You've never heard of that word . Oh shoot , I don't know if I did it right . I thought a deluge was like an overflowing . You guys might have to fact check me on this one .

Mark: You could be right . I'm nervous now it's not ringing a bell .

Trevor: I'm nervous now that people are gonna think I'm just there's been an overflow , okay , of running companies that have come out recently . You got on running , you've got hoka . That has like stepped up yeah so you might be right about that , but but probably over the last four years I think that's changed . I still think that people in the running space look to Nike as a premier company . Now I don't know if they do .

Mark: Well , of course they're a premier company , but I don't think if you ask your average consumer what is Nike , they're not going to say it's a running company . I think you're right about that . But they started as a very niche running company . Sure Right , steve Prefontaine put them on the map . He started the running craze . Not started , but he was maybe the the face of the running craze that hit the seventies , late sixties , seventies in America . Everyone was running back then we should bring on , uh , jordan Maddox .

Trevor: I think he said he's coming on on the podcast .

Mark: We'll talk more about running and it cyclical nature in america . But uh sorry , keep making the point you're making . Started as a running brand , but they wanted to expand eventually . You kind of become okay , we're a running brand , that's great , but running only gets you so far yeah okay , so they , they were niche , but then eventually a niche can wear out and you have to expand . They were trying to get into basketball .

Trevor: They can wear out . Wear out or it limits your growth . It'll limit your growth .

Mark: But a smart company doesn't try to expand too quick . If you watch the show with Ben Affleck Air , that's the point where they were trying to figure out .

Trevor: We're not cool .

Mark: Nobody wanted to wear their shoe . They weren't cool because Converse was Dr J , you had Adidas , but Nike wasn't cool . Back then , nobody wanted to wear Nike . So what did they do ?

Trevor: My MJ .

Mark: They put a big bet on MJ and they won . Yeah , luckily they won . Yeah , but I think the story there is they used an influencer , they used somebody with an expanded reach or perception to now tap into a different market . They never lost , like you said . I agree with you . They didn't lose their running status . Yeah , but then they became a sport wear brand rather than just a running company . Yeah , an athletic company , an athletic company .

Trevor: Yeah . So the thought is like so now we're starting to get into like okay , so what do brands need to be doing ? I think there's some like basic I always call them like the pick and rolls of marketing and I think a lot of people like they get away from some of the basics because there are short-term solutions that we're giving them big outcomes . Uh , biggest one that comes to mind is paid ads . I spend a dollar , uh in in facebook and I got two or three or four back right , so how do I just do more of that ? And then what's starting to happen now is is like costs are rising and so , with the economy , everything rises , and so your CAC , meaning your cost per acquired customer , your new cost per new customer , you know , let's say , uh went was $20 last year , it's probably now 30 or $40 this year . Um , for a lot of brands and that's what's hurting a lot of these companies is is the expenses is really hard . And so , yeah , if you were a brand that relied so heavily on paid ads which most companies that started in this like 2018 world were those people , because they hit the pay-to-play model , they saw huge , huge wins . They stopped creating content , organic content that people really , really wanted to view new eyes , wanted to view and said we don't need to invest in that . Let's put all of our time and attention and efforts into paid ads and let's roll , because we're seeing immediate conversions from it . And now what's starting to happen is , as costs are getting more and more expensive , you are now just like at the mercy of these paid platforms , and what they're doing and guys we're saying this Because it's the fastest way to get in front of the customer that you want to get in front of . Well , it's the easiest way . I'd say it's the fastest , fastest and easiest maybe . And I'm going to say an argument to that . Yeah , you could , I'll give you the argument to that . And so you're having these people who , just like you're kind of like beholden now to the man when you do that right , a golden handcuff , if you will yeah , yeah the golden handcuffs and so um . The question is is how do brands get back to well , and what they did with their content creation is content creation became almost an extension of their website . Does that make sense ? That's how I view most people now , like most most people .

Mark: Yeah , because you can buy . Yeah , like every social platform is just your SEO now .

Trevor: Very rarely , very rarely , is a brand popping up in my organic feed , like on Instagram , for example , and I'm like , oh , that's very interesting , I need to follow them to learn more . It's just not happening . But what happens is if I see a paid ad from a brand , let's say , for example , like standard issue , right , I'm wearing a lot of their product right now . If I see a paid ad for these guys and I see it , I'm going to look at them and be like oh , I'm going to go to their . I'm going to go to their Instagram because I want to see how this outfit looks on a model , and so that's what I mean by the . Content creation becomes an extension of the website , which isn't a bad thing , but it's not bringing brands organic distribution anymore , whereas it used to Correct , it used to bring new eyeballs to the website , but most people's content creation is not doing that .

Mark: Because they're not adjusting .

Trevor: They're not adjusting exactly , going back to it . So I think one of the biggest things that brands can and need to be doing is how do you switch gears and say , okay , how do I make my paid ad strategy as efficient as possible ? Yes , you keep doing that , but how do you maybe take some of that budget away and invest it into a content creation strategy that isn't an extension of the website but becomes a distribution channel that enhances what you're doing on your paid outside ?

Mark: yeah , essentially going back to 2016 , how do you play the game the way it's supposed to ?

Trevor: be , you were playing it .

Mark: We were all playing it then , right , like I remember it was just cheaper to do it back then because it was photos and you know you'd edit the photos . But now it's videos I mean it wasn't .

Trevor: It wasn't , though , because , like I can tell you on the brand side , like we spent like $90,000 on photos and we were an under $10 million brand . We spent a $90,000 on a trip to Europe for photo shoot and we used , I counted , I counted , we used of like the thousand photos that we took . We probably used 30 of those photos on social media .

Mark: And it wasn't super uncommon to do things like that ? No , not at all .

Trevor: So you're right in some regards . I think what's happening now is it's cheaper to make organic content now , but it's harder . Does that make sense ? It's harder to figure out the stuff that's going to hit and to find the person that's going to do .

Mark: It's actually more expensive is because you have to have a face , sure , yeah ? You have to hire the right person to make sure that you are getting that's a good right . Content versus like which some owners are great at , and so maybe that's not an additional cost but it's cheaper .

Trevor: Totally to your point , but a lot of brands don't know how to adjust and they need to get someone in there to do it 2018 , you can get somebody right out of college to just be what's called a social media manager yeah , very easy , and you're not going to pay them a ton of money . What's happening is you're taking the content that you went out and produced the high , high , high-end content and they're now posting it when it's . The other way around it's like , hey , there's an argument to make about good , high quality content . Like we work with the folks over at Film Lab who can create really , really awesome , high quality content , and a lot of that can be good , really good use for ads or sizzle reels or website stuff , and even organic stuff too , right . But what people want right now is they want to see into the brand , they want to know who the founders are , they want to know who's working there where . They want to know more about the brand and less about the product and how it might solve their problems .

Mark: Yes , seems counterintuitive right to me . It's not counterintuitive because you need everything going back to nike brand could see it that way , I know , I know . But going back to the nike example , to help maybe some marketers and brands contextualize this , nike has always had curated advertising , right , but right , they handed their shoes off to athletes that had their own characters . Yeah , and yes , there's parameters you , you know around who you sponsor and stuff like that . But to an extent you got to think in that framework that was very similar to what you're saying is like hey , people wanted to see a cool person wearing nike before they wanted to wear nike , for sure , and that was michael jordan primarily the face he became .

Trevor: That became the face of it . It wasn't phil knight no , phil knight was never the face of it . That became the face of it . It wasn't Phil Knight no , phil Knight was never the face of it .

Mark: It really never has been . Yeah , and a whole other discussion . Nike is just a brand built off of influencer marketing .

Trevor: Yeah , but I tell you what .

Mark: But again , I would bet I'm going to go look this up and we'll post it . But I would bet they spend far more in just advertising than they do on their paid sponsorships of athletes . Sure , and they spend a ton on those paid sponsorships with athletes , yeah . But on top of that , dude , they're still spending on online . They spend on commercials . They spend right to put their names on arenas and in arenas and on commercials . So you put all that together , like this company isn't just doing influencer marketing . Influencer marketing is how you get reach , how you get people to say like oh , I like that , I recognize it , I want to be a part of that , or I can see myself wearing that , or I want to be like this person . Same thing with what you're saying is you're turning the camera in and you've got to turn it on yourself as a company Can you imagine . And now people say , oh , I relate to that , I want to be like that , or I could see myself wearing that .

Trevor: There's relatability and there's also some storytelling right .

Mark: So like imagine this .

Trevor: So Nike's doing a lot right and they just have such a big brand presence that like once again , like if you're , you might again , that's how they grew . Yeah , you might not say you might . We might not say that nike is no , is no longer deemed as the running company , but there's no doubt that nike becomes a part of a consideration when buying running shoes .

Mark: Yes , but there's no doubt that their running section is still probably bigger than every d to c running darling but can you imagine this is something nike is not doing .

Trevor: So , right , nike's nailing , signing the right athletes and they are delivering product to everybody who is going to potentially fit and and and help their brand . Right , they're doing all that stuff . They're putting a ton of money into paid ads . Of course they're creating very , very high level um content , um , through content agencies or through their in-house team , whatever it might be . But one thing they're not doing I can guarantee you that their organic , their organic profiles are not driving crazy amounts of brand new eyeballs . Of course they're not , because they've already . But imagine this they're in escape velocity . But imagine this . Imagine if Phil Knight , they turn Phil Knight into the face of Nike and they started a series of Phil Knight telling the story , unique stories of Nike from back in the 80s to their IPO , to today . And they were short three . You know 160 , and they were short three , you know 160 , 120 seconds to three minute stories of him almost clipping what Shoe Dog was or what Air is . So you're telling . So that's what you would do today .

Mark: You're right 100% , but they did that the same way , in a similar way with Shoe Dog Totally .

Trevor: But you start doing that . I'm not disagreeing with you . What ?

Mark: I'm saying to brands , though , to recognize is like people will say well , yeah , my nike is not doing this thing . It's like well , nike is an escape velocity , like they've already , like they're already known , right , they don't need any help for people to know who nike is anymore , so it's just about touch points there's not . There's not a single person who probably doesn't know who Nike is in the world but they already did that in their time of growth but they could resurge and get more people totally interested if they start doing something like this if you look at their page , like let's just pull up Nike running , for example , but if I pull up a Nike profile , it's probably going to be a campaign .

Trevor: It's going to be a campaign .

Mark: It's going to be new product launches .

Trevor: Yeah , it's very product Maybe a new signing of an athlete , focused Yep , and it's very , very curated .

Mark: But even then , if you look at their most liked , they released a really sick shoe .

Trevor: Yeah , they're always going to get that kind of stuff .

Mark: That worked , but even this one , that that's their highest engaged post .

Trevor: Yeah , like 20 , 20 000 likes . It's 30 000 . 30 000 likes is actually not that much then someone break dancing wearing their stuff .

Mark: It's like 40 000 for a company that size .

Trevor: But I'm just telling you , like , if we go , so this is back to and we'll start , we'll kind of end on this note , brian's . Like I'm telling you right now there would be a resurge of people becoming more and more interested in Nike . If someone like Phil Knight , if Steve Wozniak all of a sudden they started telling stories from Steve Wozniak's perspective through Apple , who's not watching those ? Everyone's watching those . I know you're thinking , but I'm right I don't know if you're right on that one . I am , from that guy's angle , the guy who got trashed .

Mark: I think the people that already like it . Yeah , I mean , people would watch them Totally . I would . I don't know if people it would sell any , I don't know when you're top of mind , it sells , but again like we're talking about companies that have reached it , but the point being is you're right for companies in this age where it's like , hey , you're not even a billion dollar company a lot of you so you need as much distribution as possible . How do you use , get distribution in the channels where people are at a cost that's going to be effective ? Yeah , is the question . Ads is part of that , it always is , but the other part of it is reinvesting into the storytelling and going after that framework , which is doing what algorithms want you to do , so not trying to find a hack , doing what algorithms not trying to find a trend and delivering it in the taste that your consumer wants to consume , which is like if you're an ice cream shop and you're delivering like pistachio ice cream but nobody wants it . You know it's , it's like that's such a stupid example . But yeah , and nobody wants it , because nobody has a taste for that ice cream no offense to pistachio ice cream people , but like who ? Who's spending money on that ? Yeah , people are crazy . That's why you got to have the chocolates in there . So if you're delivering content , what taste does do people want in that content creation ?

Trevor: like you said , it's going to be personalized storytelling yeah , easy as that which is in theory cheap , yes , but , but there's a if you're not the right person to do it , then it can be expensive and people don't want to invest , but they should well , and there's a cost of , like there's a I know we keep saying we'll end there's a cost of , there's a mental cost associated to that as well . I think we have a lot of founders , like we had roxanne on the , was it two episodes ago ? The rookie wellness founder ? Yeah , circling back to self-care yeah , she , she was she . Like when you listen to that podcast , she was great . She was a great talking head . Yeah , she's amazing . But like meant she had this like mental , like I don't want to do that , like I don't want to get in front of a camera , I don't want to be the face I don't want .

Mark: So there's , yeah , there's a certain mental way , there's a mental cost , yeah for sure for a lot of founders .

Trevor: Um , that is is , I think , a lot more scary than it actually really is when you do it , because Cause I have the . You know , I it's not like I'm this , this big content creator , but I usually create content every single day , but it , I mean it . It like that first , like three months of doing it three or four years ago , was was agonizing . Yeah , it really was . And and I and I feel like I like to talk . I don't mind being in front of a camera , I don't mind , I can speak to 20 people just as good as I can speak to 500 people . I might sweat a little more in front of 500 people , but I'm not any more nervous , like mentally .

Mark: But it's funny because I can get up and speak in front of people or talk like this and I'm fine , but getting in front of a camera by myself I'm like ugh . Totally Like I said it was .

Trevor: I mean , it just gave me the heebie-jeebies . I just hated the thought of it , you know ? Yeah , so it's a lot less scary than it actually really is , unless you're , unless it's a different fear of , like I am , stage fright , that's different .

Mark: Like that's just not a whole ton that you can , which , ironically , some people have stage fright that are fine , doing the camera , sure , sure , so all right , I don't know , but nonetheless it's following that system . So figure out what the algorithm wants you to do . We know instagram wants you to post frequently videos . Right , you got to also use the stories to get that engagement from more of like a like an everyday perspective . Yeah , right , but how do you frame your company into the story of your customers ? Yeah , cause that's how I would say . It's like what is the why of your customers ? We've talked about that . Why should they care about you ? Yeah , and how do you frame your story into the way they see themselves in the world ? Yeah , story into the way they see themselves in the world .

Trevor: Yeah , you got to adapt too . That's the other thing . Adapt it's not always your business is failing , it just could mean you're not adapting .

Mark: It just could be . Everyone's hit a plateau and you're not .

Trevor: TLDR .

Mark: It's evolution , darwinism at its finest . There's a reason why the American cheetah does not exist anymore . Yeah you anymore , yeah you know ?

Trevor: Yeah , I didn't know there was an American cheetah there was Absolutely Wild .

Mark: In fact , they say the pronghorns evolved to run away from them and now they're not around , so there's not a lot that can catch a pronghorn , Because they're super fast , they're crazy fast .

Trevor: Interesting . I've seen pronghorns in real life .

Mark: I've seen them all the time .

Trevor: Here in Utah . Yeah , really , I've only seen them in Oregon . What , yeah , there's a golf course , or one of my favorite golf courses is called Pronghorn Dude you just go out to the West Desert . Well , maybe pronghorn dude , you just go out to the the west desert . Well , maybe I thought I saw an antelope . I was just out in the west desert but I thought it was an antelope . But they kind of look antelopes and pronghorns kind of look .

Mark: Maybe a little similar well , technically they're not antelopes , but yeah oh really there's no such thing as an antelope in the united states antelope island . Yeah they just named it , misnamednamed . Yeah , all right , everybody , scientifically speaking .

Trevor: Thank you so much for joining us . We won't talk about antelopes and pronghorns anymore , but we will see you guys next week . Thank you so much for listening to the Unstoppable Marketer podcast . Please go rate and subscribe the podcast , whether it's good or bad . We want to hear from you because we always want to make this podcast better . If you want to get in touch with me or give me any direct feedback , please go follow me and get in touch with me . I am at the Trevor Crump on both Instagram and TikTok . Thank you , and we will see you next week .