EP. 95 The Complete Guide to Mapping Your Customer's Journey

Trevor: Yo , what's going on ? Everybody , welcome to the Unstoppable Marketer podcast . With me , as always , is Mark Goldhart .

Mark: What's up ?

Trevor: Mr Co-host , how are you ? I'm great how are you Wonderful , wonderful In the heat of summer here in Utah ?

Mark: Yeah , it's hot . It's hot around the country right now . Some heat waves going around . We're going to get a possible record high in the Salt Lake Valley .

Trevor: Last week it was like 80s , which is really nice for Utah , like low 80s is a blessing in Utah .

Mark: I think it said it might hit 107 this week .

Trevor: Well , I was looking at it at least by my house . It's always a little cooler by my house because I think I'm a little higher up .

Mark: Well , you're Utah Valley too , so I don't know what the my house was saying like 101 degrees on Friday . My house is similar elevation .

Trevor: I think over here it's going to be more like 103 , 104 is what I saw .

Mark: Yeah , my house is similar elevation , I think it's 102 . But down at the center of the valley .

Trevor: I think they said it could get up to 107 really , which is very hot for utah and I happen to be playing in like I'm playing . I'm playing in an all-day tournament on friday and on saturday tennis tournament and they're both outdoors tournaments and those are supposed to be the two hottest days . I luckily got a buy my first round , so I should have started at like 1 on Friday , but I don't play until 6 on Friday , which is nice .

Mark: I actually think that's worse .

Trevor: Well , you're right , the hottest temperature is usually what Like 4 or 5? .

Mark: I think 6 is like the peak of it , because you get that west yeah .

Trevor: But in tennis what's nice is I'd rather play in 2 or 3 degree hotter weather versus the sun being like the 4 or 5 o'clock sun when you're serving a ball .

Mark: Are tennis courts typically north-south though . Yeah , north to south is really hard on the north side because you're looking at the north , we're a little bit in the northern hemisphere , so yeah .

Trevor: So I prefer 6 because that sun will be slightly setting a little bit more , so the ball doesn't go Literally , the ball goes directly into the sunlight .

Mark: For me , yes , the temperature peaks at 4 to 5 , light for me . So , yes , the temperature peaks at four to five , and then six o'clock tends to be about three , four degrees hotter than one o'clock , so it will be hotter yeah , but what I'm saying is I'm happy because I gotta buy .

Trevor: I don't have to play at one o'clock with the sun , with the glare and then again at six o'clock yeah does that make sense ? Yeah , because most people are playing twice a day , two , two times on Friday .

Mark: Yuck .

Trevor: So I got lucky .

Mark: I just think I might just go to the mountains . Man , I might not just be around , I might not be around for that . Go up to where it's like 75 . Yeah , escape , not a bad idea . It's not a bad idea at all .

Trevor: Not a bad idea .

Mark: It's not a bad idea at all Not a bad idea , but 4th of July was great Fireworks . No wildfires around here yet .

Trevor: Yeah , we haven't heard of any wildfires .

Mark: Not yet , I mean , they'll happen .

Trevor: Yeah , you know what we did .

Mark: Just a matter of time .

Trevor: What we've done , the last , like two or three years for the 4th of July is , for those of you who know utah , or and for those of you who don't know utah , like the utah landscape , utah is like a , it's like a bowl and it's surrounded just by mountains that's called a valley , valley , yeah , yeah but like , but like . Yeah , I know it's called a valley , but someone from kansas do they know what like that ? Can they picture what that valley looks like ? You know ? so it's just like a mountain right valley , according to mark , and , and there's this in a valley , there's , there's , there's salt lake county and utah county and there's what we call the point of the mountain . And the point of the mountain is like what ? Like almost like a , almost like a divider between the bowl , but but this doesn't go all the way . It doesn't cut the bowl in half .

Mark: Yeah , it's just one giant bowl , yeah .

Trevor: And so we've been going to the point of the mountain . At the top of the mountain there's a city called Suncrest , and the last three years that's where we go for the 4th of July . So we sit up there and we overlook the Utah County side and we watch the fireworks in the whole Valley .

Mark: So you like , you like the overlook .

Trevor: Yeah , so we haven't been like lighting our own fireworks or doing our own firework show . We've been going . We started doing that because where I live that you could , you can't light fireworks . Like there's , you can't light fireworks . So we now you can cause it's a little greener and less dry .

Mark: But now I'm much more of a . I want to light off my own fireworks .

Trevor: I typically was . But , dude , like you , just go get some treats , like get some snacks , some treatsies . And blankets and the kids play . There's like a park at the top of this place . Yeah , and the kids just play and you just sit and watch . And then we had , like a speaker played some music , some American music , you know toby keith bruce spring springsteen , you know , born in the usa , brucey , bruce and uh some john mellencamp you get everything . We saw . We saw the , the . You know , you've heard about the whole . Uh , what happened over at stadium fire byu , the fireworks that hit people in the face oh yeah , we got to get a little clip of that pop , we , we I mean one hit one of the band members and another one into the stands . Yeah , that was crazy people that got like actually injured , it's incredible we saw that it happened right when there was I can't remember what planes , like what uh jets fly over f .

Mark: I feel like you should know this uh , I mean , it's probably f-16s or f-35s yeah , no f-35s from . I think they're scenes no that's what I thought I .

Trevor: That's what I thought I read .

Mark: Really .

Trevor: I think so .

Mark: Anyway , third F , I thought Hill Air Force Base only has 35s now , but I could be wrong .

Trevor: It's one of the Fs , but what was cool is One of the F-words . What was cool is the F-35s or 16s flew like what seemed like 100 yards over our head , because they flew over that mountain .

Mark: And then went over Suncrest .

Trevor: Went right over us , so it was like super shocking , so it was cool .

Mark: That is cool .

Trevor: Yeah , so you should give it a shot . You know Well the aerial view .

Mark: God bless America God bless America , that's right , that's where we are . Okay , let's talk about uh , what are we seeing out there in the e-commerce landscape ? Um , something that we keep running into as we've been consulting with brands is , and we thought we'd bring it up in the pod . Maybe this is useful , maybe it's not .

Trevor: We think it's useful , though yeah , if we're hearing something over and over again from clients or people we consult with , or people who are using bestie like we generally like , hey , that should be a topic we should address on the podcast , because if we're hearing it here , most likely all of you are experiencing it or a big portion of you are experiencing it .

Mark: Precisely , and that is what is a funnel . And more precisely is a lot of people have asked us questions about hey , what should top funnel efforts look like ? Or what are bottom funnel efforts and middle of the funnel ? And I guess , first and foremost , like is the funnel outdated ?

Trevor: Yeah , it's a good question and I think like Because the funnel ?

Mark: some people claim the funnel comes from this idea that you could track people down the funnel . That I don't . That is not actually where the funnel comes from . It's not you could literally track . It was just an ideation of where people are in the journal .

Trevor: It's more of a journey . Yes , a journal . Yes , a journey journal entry kind of burped there yeah pulled joe biden yeah , it was more of a journey journey .

Mark: The customer journey represented the funnel yes right , and it started really more so in like b2b , the b2b space yes , because you would assume that people didn't have quite as long of a journey , right , because you'd have like a top of funnel , middle of the funnel , bottom of the funnel , and then you'd have like what are called marketing qualified leads and sales sales qualified leads and yeah , all that that's in the b2b space .

Trevor: Yes , you don't really have all of that yeah , and why don't you have all that in this world ?

Mark: well , typically , sales cycles are not as long . You don't really have all of that . Yeah , and why don't you have all that in this world ? Well , typically sales cycles are not as long you don't have a sales rep engaging with someone after they've left the marketing touch points .

Trevor: Right .

Mark: Or , you know , they never truly leave the marketing touch points .

Trevor: And generally , just to clarify what Mark's saying .

Mark: But you do have marketing qualified leads . That's just your email list of people who haven't bought .

Trevor: Exactly , yeah , but generally what Mark's saying is your buying cycle is significantly less in the e-commerce space , which is obviously what we talk about on this podcast , is the B2C space and usually your customer journey and how long you take to get from the top to the bottom to a purchase oftentimes heavily relates to price point of products , correct Meaning . If this hat costs $30 , it's a lot easier for me to just like spend it and be okay with it and not have to get permission from my wife or consult all my friends to see what hats they've bought but if you're buying a four thousand dollar motorcycle , yeah , or a couch that was six grand you're not gonna just jump on that , yeah right , you're gonna go to several different lots .

Mark: You're gonna or there's even like more , even though they're not that high of price points , but like once you get into the $200 to $300 range . A lot of times those items are things that you don't need all the time , so you might wait , like I already have a golf bag , or like I've already got a really nice backpack or my luggage . Sure a tent If you're not buying luggage just because you feel like it usually that's more of a needs-based purchase . And yes , tent , you're not buying luggage just because you feel like it like usually that's a more of a needs-based purchase . And , yes , you're going to get the one you like . But a lot of people aren't just like , oh , I need , yeah , I'll buy like five hundred dollars of luggage even though I don't go go anywhere right and a lot of people already have luggage . So how worn out is it ?

Trevor: there's going to be a little bit more thought process to that purchase totally , and in our opinion , yep , and in the data , yeah , um , I also think funnels , or the idea of funnels , or customer journeys , become a little bit more important based off of , uh , maybe problems , problem solution , um products as well . Yeah right , because oftentimes problem solution products as well . Yeah Right , because oftentimes problem solution products require , not require . But people are just generally doing research , right , correct ? Like , hey , I'm trying to get rid of my acne , that's a problem , you know , and so you're just doing so much research . And so I think , like , I think the biggest takeaway is it's not really a funnel , it's the journey . I think that's one thing that we have to just understand To be able to capsulize a journey , or sorry , a funnel in the e-commerce space . It's really hard to do , but to understand that the it's hard to do , but to understand that the it's hard to do , but it's a good .

Mark: I still think it's a good visual of just understanding where people are . That doesn't mean that you're literally pushing people down the funnel .

Trevor: Right , but that's the problem with the funnels People . I think that they can .

Mark: They're like I'm literally dictating where people are .

Trevor: Or you can do that more on the B2B sales , on those higher things , because you're on the phone call with those people , you're sending the emails , you're doing those things where you're kind of checking the boxes , whereas in the e-commerce space , 99% of the time , you're never speaking to that person ever .

Mark: Correct , and especially because a lot of retargeting pixels and whatever have gone out the window , yeah . But I think it's good to understand that some people are in the unaware stage and unaware of their customer journey . Yeah , so if your customers , you have potential customers out there who are unaware of who you are or what problem you're solving , and maybe both .

Trevor: Yes , and there's two different things with unaware right , there's either unaware of you , the brand , the product , or unaware of the problem that they need solved , correct , right . There's kind of two different versions of this right yes because some people get so caught up in . I need to top of , I need to create so much awareness at the top of the funnel . Let's , let's take um . I don't know why I'm on skincare right now , but I just want . I just I just got served a couple ads for it and I don't know why . But let's , let's take skincare for a second .

Mark: Okay , let's take it for skincare .

Trevor: I don't think there is like people will think hey , if I need to get some awareness , I need to get the message of my brand and the problems out there more frequently Correct . But at the end of the day , you actually don't need to really do that , because people like there are so many brands and there are so many people who are already creating content and videos and there are so many content creators who aren't selling products , who are talking about their skincare routines like they're already doing the top of funnel awareness . Now all you need to do is infiltrate as to why you're the solution for the things that they're researching and that you know . So it's like it changes this like dynamic of let me tell you about problems too . Now let me just start like giving you solutions , because people are already searching all that up here , right , right , they're already in aisle . They just need to see me .

Mark: Well , because skincare is an interesting one , because , again it goes , it goes back to are they aware , unaware of , of what you're solving ? So if you're a skincare company and you're solving , I don't know , let's just say acne how many people are unaware that they have acne or not ?

Trevor: Most , not many , not many . Right , you look in the mirror , yeah .

Mark: So they're just unaware , maybe , of who you are Right and how you accomplish it . Yep , but they're already in the itch stage , exactly Like they have an itch Yep , they're looking on a way of how they can get it scratched , but they , they know it's there .

Trevor: Yeah it's not like I don't yeah , I have no idea . Do I have acne ? And if you want to flip it to a different product , let's take just women's clothing yeah right , like either you're a woman who cares about fashion or you're not . Either you're a woman who cares about functionality or you're not right and so and so those are things you're just already searching for , and so if you're selling women's dresses , you know sundresses , for example . It's not that you need to create awareness around why a sundress could be cool . You just need to get in front of the people who are going to want that yeah , and and that might be .

Mark: You just need to create awareness around that you carry whatever sizing that's hard to find for people sure maybe you're an inclusive brand and you have small the 2xl or 3xl or 4xl or whatever it is and you need to create awareness that you can solve that and that you're going to be able to service those people totally but . But again , like , those people might be unaware of who you are or they're not , but you still need to sell in that process . And so I think the biggest misconception is there's a lot of people out there thinking that top funnel is this , like I'm just going to spend a lot of money on on on certain kinds of videos and , depending on where you are as a brand , that might be the right choice . But a lot of lower brands in the one to 15 , 20 million a year space , I think , spend a lot of money on that stuff and thinking that they're going to garner X amount of traffic or video views .

Trevor: Totally .

Mark: And it it doesn't retarget in the way that they think , because different people will engage with videos for video views on meta and link clicks that are actually looking to purchase Totally .

Trevor: Totally , I'm trying to find . We had Alex MacArthur on our podcast and he said something that was very interesting . I can't remember if I posted the clip or not . I'm trying to find it , but remember he says something he has , he had the saying and it was well , it's search follows intent , I think no , that's not what it is . It's something follows search , yeah sales .

Mark: It's sales follow search .

Trevor: Sales follow search yes , that's what it is sales , follow search . So so like yeah , which is which is kind of somewhat going against some of the things that we're saying right now I don't , I don't think so . In a way , yeah , I don't think so , and we can , we can say that right , because what he's saying is like hey , listen , if I can get my brand name more frequently out there and what we do , then eventually people will start searching for us .

Mark: Which is true .

Trevor: Which is absolutely true , you know . But there are some people , there are some brands depending upon the stage that they're in that they don't even have to make that step yet , because they're not just scraping what's just sitting there . Does that make sense ?

Mark: Yeah , exactly .

Trevor: Yeah , so we're not disagreeing with what he's saying . We're just saying that , dependent upon the level and what you are currently or not currently doing , there are maybe more economical solutions .

Mark: Yeah , but another way of saying that is in meta you have different optimization settings . So in Facebook marketing you can optimize based off of a purchase or a sale . You can optimize based off of a click , a link click . You can optimize off of a video view of X amount of time , or a through play , which is 15 seconds , or video completion if the video is less than 15 seconds . So you can optimize off of all those things . And we're not saying you can't do any of those top funnel efforts . But what we are saying is that in prospecting , which is what we usually define as optimizing off of a purchase event , you are still going to be doing top of funnel efforts and retargeting efforts in there .

Trevor: Sure .

Mark: And the way to differentiate between those two efforts within a prospecting campaign , which should usually take up the bulk of your budget , right , I think that's . The problem is people think about this as all even A lot of times when we've audited accounts or helped companies kind of clean up their accounts it's not all equal , because you're still getting some of those efforts in a prospecting conversion campaign . So how do you differentiate in a prospecting , sales-based , optimized campaign for top funnel , middle of the funnel , bottom of the funnel ? And that's usually identifying where they are in their customer journey and addressing that in the ad .

Trevor: Yeah .

Mark: Yep , so it's going to be through your creative .

Trevor: Yeah .

Mark: And through that creative . You might not like top funnel ads , might not have great quote ROAS , but , like what Alex said , you can still look at your search volume on your direct traffic , right , and on branded traffic and on certain keywords that might be really closely related to your brand . Like maybe someone saw your skincare brand , you're solving acne . You have a special coconut cream oil , right , right . Well , somebody's searching coconut cream oil , right , right , well , if somebody's searching coconut cream oil , acne solution , yep , and that's pretty unique to you . Like that's not necessarily non-brand either , right , it's kind of in between , like your branded terms and non-brand terms sure but you can track all that and if you're seeing measurable increase in those that kind of traffic , yep then you know sales are going to follow and you know sales are going to follow that totally and that , and the same goes for top funnel efforts . And but that's where people miss out is they think , hey , I'm just going to run these quote top funnel efforts in meta , which are link or views or whatever , yeah , without any optimized goal of a purchase , and but they're not measuring how . What is the increase , yeah , of my , my conversion-based campaigns or my , my search volume or anything else like ? Are you actually seeing intent , right , right , from that top funnel effort of people who are unaware of you ? Because that's kind of what you're trying to do ? But again , we think that top funnel has evolved . Right , that used to be a lot of like , I mean , seo is kind of top funnel , bottom funnel , but there's a lot of SEO . Right , there was a lot of like outreach with like video campaigns , but we think it's really evolved into a different kind of strategy altogether , because the the funnel has , even though it's still , yes , it's there it's more of like where somebody is in their journey and that journey goes back and forth . It's not that someone's always ready to buy . Yeah , someone might be ready to buy this week , who's not ready to buy next week because they've changed their mind , or they're just not . That itch isn't really as strong as it was the day before .

Trevor: Yeah , yeah , and I think it's super important to we keep saying this is like what you really need to figure out is that , like , how do you identify where they're at within their journey ? You know , and I think if we go back to maybe two podcasts ago , we talked a lot about like customer insights through surveying , and I want to share , I want to share an example I shared last week , last time , which was we worked with a , with a brand in the like e-moto , e-bike space , right , and they were trying to understand their funnel , they were trying to understand the customer journey , and they asked , I think , three or four questions . And one question was how did you first hear about Emoto , or how did you first hear about e-bike ? So , not even like , how did you first hear about our brand name ? I don't even care about when you heard about us right now , I just want to know how you're , how you're hearing about this . And they , like the , the two big responses were we're seeing you , seeing it on social media . So people are posting like , hey , check out how cool this is , check out how I'm riding this , whatever . Or I'm seeing it in like the wild . You know , I'm at the park , I see somebody riding it , I'm at , I'm on a trail , wherever I'm seeing people . So , like that is the top , a funnel , right that ? Like that . So social media and in person , like that's how people are discovering what emoto is all about . So if , as you figure that first step out , it's like okay , cool , what do we do ? Like , what is , what does top of funnel mean for us ? Okay , we can't really control the only way we can , you can can .

Mark: You can impact bikes on the trail by selling more bikes , yeah , so like okay , so we have . There's a little bit of a chicken in the egg there exactly .

Trevor: So we got to figure out how to sell more bikes , okay , so . So we can't quite address that one yet . So what's the other thing ? Okay , social media . So how do we , how do we own social media a little bit more ? We can run more paid ads , we can build our organic strategy , which is a huge one and so this is what we call the awareness stage yep and then there's how do we make people aware that these bikes exist ?

Mark: yep , okay and then you're going to get to the consideration and research phase yep , yep , so , so like , let's so organic content creation .

Trevor: Paid ads is going to do the same thing , I think right especially because for this kind of purchase you're talking about thousands of dollars . So one paid ad generally isn't going to sell a bike , so I think you can also identify whether it's organic or paid . That is a very top of funnel piece can be very top of funnel . I think the third thing for top of funnel is , if people are seeing this on social media , how do you infiltrate a affiliate , ambassador , influencer network of more and more people showcasing that product ?

Mark: Yes .

Trevor: Right , because , once again , people find out and discover you through social media . Okay , so that is , we have just officially accomplished what the top of funnel for this type of brand looks like and what your efforts can be . Okay , and that can be on any social media channel , by the way , whether it's tiktok or meta or whatever . So then the next question was okay , once you've discovered us , or discovered this product exists , where do you go next to do your research ? If you should buy something like , like , if you want to buy what am I where , where are you going like ? So what is your next step ? okay , I saw , I saw this dude , right so again we're , we're moving into from awareness hey , this exists to consideration and research oh , I might be interested in buying this and consideration and research .

Mark: The reason why we like to look at those together is because there's not a lot of research involved with certain products . Sure , like they're considering you and if they like you , right , if it's resonating , and then you're going to have to look at , like , what's your brand , yeah , what's the feel , yep , whatever , yep , but you don't need a lot of research . But in this case there's going to be more research . So , consideration research Is much so consideration research is much bigger . The research phase is going to be much longer , and so people here decided or not decided , but where did they go ?

Trevor: They discovered that it was like 65% of people who responded was YouTube , the other 30% was Google , and so they were like , okay , cool , is there a gap in our consideration piece of the funnel customer journey ? What they discovered is Google , no , google . They were really , really dialed , not really do much on the SEO side , but they were . They were nailing on the paid side of things . Any sort of search for e-moto , e-bike , kind of stuff . They're showing up , okay , but they weren't doing anything with youtube right so now what they've discovered is like okay , cool , for a lot of people , youtube is the awareness like you ask a lot of brands and a lot of brands who do , who run paid ads , for youtube is very much an awareness strategy correct , but for these a research . For these guys . No , no , no , this is middle Like . This is consideration , middle to bottom for us . So how do we build a channel and invest in getting people to like subscribe ? And they did something that was really , really cool . Like these bikes are $4,000 , $5,000 . And they did this massive like campaign , this giveaway campaign , that was like we're gonna give out two or we're gonna give away two or three of these bikes , so it was like 12 grand worth of bikes if they hit 10 000 subscribers .

Mark: And they just went hard at it for like 30 days and got 10 000 subscribers , gave away three bikes and their channel just flourished like crazy you know , so now added some ad spend to it as well well and that , and the ad strategy was hey , we need to make sure that we are showing up for these types of research terms .

Trevor: Same thing you do with .

Mark: Google . Yeah , same thing you do with Google , but in YouTube , make sure you're appearing , make sure that you're showing people that like hey , you're experts on this and you're leading them into the right decision . Exactly Because if somebody's going to spend $4,000 , $5,000 , up to $10,000 on these things , they don't want to make the wrong decision .

Trevor: Exactly , Yep exactly .

Mark: So now you're the expert , you're guiding them through , you've established trust , yep , and then people search for you . Right , and then people search for you , and this is where sales follow search . So , after the research phase , they're searching for you .

Trevor: And now what are you doing to buy it ? It was all Google . We're buying through Google . We're not generally buying through an ad . Well , like a meta ad or a TikTok ad . We're buying through Google and this 3X their sales literally .

Mark: Double , down on it .

Trevor: So they double down on it and now they're hitting every stage of this funnel . Now there's obviously more things that they can and should do right , like , once again , I would say , that top funnel piece that I don't know if they're doing this as much is like how do we create that affiliate ambassador network to make more and more people aware ? How do we increase the output of YouTube videos that we're , you know , rather than I don't know what ? Let's say they're doing one every other week . How do we do once a week , you know , so that they're infiltrating every single type of question that can be asked about that ? Yes , right , like , like . I follow this guy and I'm super into tennis right now , and I follow this guy who he coach , super into tennis right now , and I follow this guy who he coached serena williams . He's coached , like the the best tennis players in the world . His name is patrick . I can't pronounce his last name because he's french , but he's got bonjour bonjour , he's got uh , he's got every video in youtube known to man about any type of question you could ask about a forehand . So it's like you could think , um , all I need is to create one video how to hit a forehand , you know . But he's got a video of , like how to hit a forehand . If you're right , I dominant how to hit a forehand . If you're left , I dominant how to hit a . How to hit a forehand , forehand when you're returning a serve . So it's like every kind of question . He's made sure that he is answering it in every type of way with a video wow right .

Mark: And now , not only does that you know that's going to help on an seo perspective from an seo perspective but also , just like he shows up for anything , now , like you type anything in like well , and that's why he's there , and that's what we want to get to is in this top funnel effort , which , which you're still going to consider , like this consideration , research phase , like is still , you know , not technically all the way at the top funnel that some brands might consider , but it's basically top funnel right right , if somebody's in that phase , how do you reach them ? Well , you got to find out where they are in that stage , for one and then for two . We think going forward and it's been like this for a couple of years , we've talked about this a bunch of times is you need to be doing content and have a face of a brand and be really engaging with people at that stage , totally , totally , so that you can become a trusted source and that you can become relatable , really engaging with people at that stage , totally , totally , so that you can become a trusted source and that you can become relatable .

Trevor: Yeah .

Mark: And that people want to buy from you .

Trevor: Totally .

Mark: When they start going down the funnel .

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Mark: Because it goes backwards too . I just want to make this point Like you might be doing prospecting ads middle of the funnel , bottom of the funnel , type stuff , you know , trying to get people in that consideration stage , in that ready to buy stage but they're going to go to your page and try to figure out hey , is this a trustworthy ?

Trevor: source .

Mark: And what are they going to look at ? They're going to watch your videos , right . They're going to go down and see what kind of content you're making . And if you're not addressing these because it's kind of , they're kind of going backwards .

Trevor: It's kind of like mixed right yeah , like they're ready to buy , but now I need to consider and research .

Mark: So are you addressing those things ? On your social channels and in your YouTube point .

Trevor: Yeah , yeah , I was gonna say that an example of a brand that's doing this really well and we talk about them all the time , so this isn't going to be a surprise to anybody here but there's a brand called midday squares , which their tagline , I believe , is like we sell functional chocolate , and what they mean by that is like healthier chocolate . That's that tastes like chocolate . It's not like healthier chocolate , that's only , and all you can taste is dates with a little bit of like cacao powder . Right , Right . And so what was interesting is like how I discovered midday squares was I was not in , I was not in the market for a new chocolate personally , Like that was not like something . I was like I need a healthier sweet . You know , I'm somebody who generally is a little more conscious about the food that I put in my body , so I'll read an ingredient . And my favorite chocolate at the time was like have you tried Justin's right ? Like Justin's peanut butter cups were like my favorite things . But I started following these guys just because they created entertaining content . And it wasn't entertaining from just like a funny perspective , it was entertaining from a business perspective . It was entertaining . They had some funny stuff educational there were shocking things that they would . They would say and do right , they did this whole bit on uh , like how some porn site took over their like a url that was very similar to Midday Squares , so it was like middaysquarecom rather than middaysquarescom or something .

Mark: People were going to it .

Trevor: So , yeah , all these people are typing in Midday Square and it's this porno site . You know , and how they had to , like , fight tooth and nail to get that domain , so that it's crazy . So just stories like that . Anyways , so I followed these guys probably a year before I ever bought from them , you know , and so that was very top of funnel for me . Like I , I'm not in the market , I don't know I want it , but I'm following these guys long enough and all of a sudden , you know , I , I , you know , for whatever reason , I think what happened is I saw them at target . I didn't even buy it online first , I just saw one at target and these are these are expensive , they're like three bucks a bar and you're talking like they're like that big .

Mark: Yeah , they're not very big .

Trevor: They're not big . Three bucks for that is . You're an idiot if you think about it Like where's a Hershey's chocolate that that big is 99 cents , right ? So I buy it and I love it , and now my wife . So it's this insurance policy that helps you get to more eyeballs without the spend that a meta requires from a paid perspective . Now , it's going to cost you time and it might cost you money too to hire the right creator or editor or whatever . There's definitely cost to it creator or editor or whatever . Right , yeah , there's definitely cost to it , but if you do it right , the amount of eyeballs you can get to fill your funnel or your customer journey is huge . But I like what you said too right . It's like somebody could see an ad . So for somebody who like , let's say , your consideration window is a week , they could see an ad .

Mark: Hey , buy this .

Trevor: They can see an ad and instead of clicking to go to the website , what do they do ? They click to go to their profile on Meta or TikTok or whatever , and you view their videos and you start to learn more about their product or you start to learn more about the founders and you're like okay , cool , I was in the mood , I needed pants , and I can get these kinds of pants probably from 10 different brands that I like .

Mark: But what are people saying about them ?

Trevor: These guys are articulating who they are , what their mission is so much better than anyone else , so I'm going to buy from them .

Mark: And that's why the funnel might be outdated is because , if you're not thinking about this as just simply people going back and forth , it's not a linear progression . Totally , and I think that's yeah , that's the problem is it's not a waterfall , it's not . Hey , someone is here , then they're going to be here , then they're going to be there .

Trevor: Yeah .

Mark: It's hey , people are moving back and forth all the time . Yeah , and it could be life circumstances . It could have nothing to do with you . Yeah , Right , it could be . Hey , I'm ready to buy a TV , but two days later I'm talking with my wife and she says we don't need a TV .

Trevor: Yeah or hey , go check out this brand first .

Mark: Or go check out this brand , or I want a foot massager , I don't know Right , like those consideration windows , like if you're not capturing someone in the moment when they're ready to buy , super important to be doing that Right , but also be important that part of that is like they might be ready to buy but then they just want to feel comfortable buying .

Trevor: Right , they need a little more validation which might just be your maybe they need another paycheck , yeah which ?

Mark: could be their research phase . Okay , now I need to research . Like , who are these people ? Oh , I like them , I like what they're doing , I like the content . It's answering my questions , it's building trust , right . So again back to this . Like top funnel , like we get this all the time . How much should we be doing in a top funnel ? Well , first of all , figure out if your top funnel's working From an ad spend perspective .

Trevor: Yeah , just to clarify .

Mark: Yeah , Figure out if your top funnel's working . You can do that by looking at your search Yep . Is it giving you any measurable impact across search or other campaigns ? If it's not , well , double down on this organic approach . Figure out where your people are in this awareness consideration research phase . Where are they ? What channels are they in ?

Trevor: invest in content on answering those questions and solving those problems and creative and fun ways yeah , yeah , and there's and I realize we're kind of like I feel like a lot of these podcast episodes we circle back and always like end with it's all about your content . You know , like it's it just tends to be the heart and soul of a brand outside of their product , obviously , you know , is what kind of content ? How are they getting people's attention ? And and I think there's a lot of people out there who are really scared of content creation new age content creation right 2022 and above 2021 and above content creation , because most brands started like . I know there's a lot of Gen Z brands out there , but if you were to , if you were to look at the e-commerce landscape , you know and let's just say there were 10,000 brands that existed the majority of those are going to be probably more gillen or gillen heel millennial gillenial gillenials more millennial based brands yeah right because they've been around longer . You know it was easier , correct to start a business in 2016 . Well , it was easier to succeed with a business in 2016 hot take , but true right versus maybe right now . Um , so I think a lot of millennials are very scared of what content creation is in new age today , which is faces in front of cameras and a lot of Gen Z brands that start like they know that that's just like I grew up , seeing that I'm significantly more comfortable showing my face and talking to a camera than a lot of millennials are , and so there's a company out there we work with these guys called Creator X , and they're an awesome solution where they can help identify a face to the brand for you proven content creators who can come in and not be your social media manager . I want to like distinguish this like there are two very different things between a content creator yeah , they're content media manager creators that are the face of your brand your social media managers are people who are responding to dms , who are answering comments , who are scheduling posts right might even be , you know , coordinating with affiliates and ambassadors , and yeah , perhaps , yep , exactly , um , I'm talking about somebody who's going to actually create the content , potentially edit it and post it . You know , maybe they're sending it over to social media manager if you have that kind of budget to have two , you know , um or or multiple people in that process . But I'm talking about the person who's going to talk , say , hey , I'm going to tell a story and blah , blah , blah , blah , and these guys do an awesome job . I think you know jt barnett is the founder of that company and they do a great job . They have this unreal network of creators that they can say hey , like , if you're struggling , that's okay , let me go get mark , he can help you . Like he can be the face of your brand and this is why you want him . You know they do a really good job . So just a quick shout out for those guys . So it's not impossible .

Mark: Yeah , like maybe you're not the guy or girl to be the face of the brand , that's okay , you don't have to be it , but you do need someone in that position now . It's like not having a website at this point .

Trevor: Yeah , and we just to also clarify and I think jt would say the same thing like we think you should- be like if , if you can , best case scenario yes , it's you as a founder because , one , you're going to save money and two , like it's your brand , you're going to identify significantly more than a random creator but there's a solution out there that can actually even perform better at times , but yeah , for sure yeah , especially if they're better at telling stories than you might be .

Mark: Which can alleviate a lot of stress , because we know that's a huge stress point for a lot of founders . It's hard being a founder man . You got a lot to do and you got to dance on TikTok . Now , not literally .

Trevor: Yeah , that is what most people do .

Mark: A lot of founders are thinking well , I can't dance , and which isn't true .

Trevor: No , no , no that's not what we're talking about here .

Mark: It's not true you don't have to go dance , but but that's how it feels , yes and so , hey , if you don't have the time , if you're busy , there are solutions out there that can help you yep , totally agree um so yeah , um , I guess that's it we are tldr tldr is tofu the funnel is a little outdated doesn't quite really exist .

Trevor: Yeah , because a lot of what bofu is can be what tofu is . Right , we just talked about that . Organic is an amazing awareness piece , but it's also that validation piece that happens here . You know , same thing with like , same thing with an affiliate stuff , like affiliate ambassador stuff can be very , very important for an awareness and for driving people to buy but we've also found that like sometimes , um , uh , a piece of ugc or somebody talking about how good a brand is as an ad performs significantly better in retargeting than sometimes it does in that initial introduction of the brand . Because at this point the introduction some people are like I don't really care who you are and why you like it , I want to know what the product is . But as they are like , hey , I'm interested in this mattress , and then they see a video of somebody using the mattress and why they like this mattress over that mattress , oh , that person's like me , yeah , oh , okay , cool , I'll get that , I look like this person you know .

Mark: Which goes back to people just want to see themselves in the content . Totally Right , yeah , the organic and the ads , like the people want to see themselves and their problems , and if you can address that that's why face to the brand is important is because people see themselves in other people . Yep , it's easier to see themselves in a brand when there's somebody they can relate to well , and it's just easier to identify with a human than it is a product .

Trevor: Correct , right ? So if you're , all you're doing is showing these pants or these shoes or a mattress or a bike , you know it's like you don't identify with objects , you don't identify with logos . But if you see trevor , who's selling this bike and I'm constantly talking about how I use it and what I like to do and how I messed up a marketing campaign and how I can't wait to go on this trip what you know and how you know and I'm not constantly bike the bike , the bike , the bike , the bike , or the shoes or whatever I'm starting to identify with this guy that I relate to , and why wouldn't I buy ? I know I can go buy this bike from 10 other brands , but I'm going to buy it from this guy . Yeah , because I identify and I like him . It's just a human instinct . Think of the funnel more as a journey . Got to go identify what that journey is . You know there are ways you can go do that .

Mark: You know there's third-party tools and the journey is kind of like Frogger .

Trevor: Yeah , yeah .

Mark: Like you might be jumping back , they might be jumping forward , yeah , so it's not necessarily driving them across the street in one full swoop .

Trevor: Yeah .

Mark: It's hey . I just need to make sure I'm addressing concerns at each point .

Trevor: Yes , I agree , good TLDR .

Mark: Go play Frogger kids . I mean the Gen Zers probably have never even played Frogger , poor guys .

Trevor: Yeah , us millennials should have the journey down .