EP. 94 The Truth Behind Brand Building and Content Creation w/ Roxanne Wise, Founder of Rookie Wellness

Trevor: Yo , what's going on everybody ? Welcome to the Unstoppable Marketer Podcast . With me , as always , is my co-host , mark Goldhart . Mark Goldhart , how are you ?

Mark: Doing well , doing great Good . Went up to the mountains this weekend . Yeah , I got my second child his first fish and he was very excited .

Trevor: You showed me the video . It was very cute .

Mark: Yeah , we'll post the video . Yes , he was ec excited . You showed me the video , it was very cute . Yeah , we'll post the video . Yes , he was ecstatic . And then as he's reeling it in . My first child , theo , also got a fish . So they're both reeling in a fish at the same time . I was worried they crossed lines . I'm like ugh that would have been good .

Trevor: This might be just a . That's like the old Little Rascals , yeah Right , where I can't remember the two kids where they're like sitting opposite sides on the boat . Yeah , they connect underneath and like , they're like oh .

Mark: Yeah , I was like , oh , they probably crossed lines because Theo's casting out on his own and I didn't watch where he cast . Oh my God .

Trevor: Yeah .

Mark: But no , sure enough , two fish Reeled it in .

Trevor: Magical moment . I saw the video . It was great . Yeah , so yes , good , we'll love it .

Mark: And after our podcast talking about fishing . So much too .

Trevor: Oh yeah , Our last podcast . We talked a lot about fishing and how it relates to content creation , I mean yes , we did . I actually thought it worked really well , personally .

Mark: I thought it flowed pretty well .

Trevor: Yeah , I thought so too . Well , I'm excited for our guests . We got a guest today me too I'm excited to intro her . We'll just do that right now we should .

Mark: I mean , we started she's . She's a natural . We were just talking already and we had to like stop her and say let's like whoa , yes well , get the bull back in the pin . It's rodeo reference oh , okay yeah yes , that makes sense .

Trevor: Now , I did not know what that meant when you first said it . All right , let's introduce our guest I'm a culture man , she's been sitting here just like . Okay , these guys , uh , roxanne wise hi like smart roxanne wise , the founder of rookie wellness yes , thank you for having me .

Roxanne Wise: Thank you so much for coming on . I'm super excited .

Trevor: We're really excited to have you .

Roxanne Wise: I'm excited to be here , yeah .

Trevor: I reached out to you .

Roxanne Wise: A minute ago , yeah , maybe like six months ago .

Trevor: Yeah , sorry about that and you ghosted me . I was not intentional . You at first talked to me .

Roxanne Wise: He deserved it and then ghosted me . Yeah , that was not . And then it was funny , I think that we're putting measures in place that that doesn't happen anymore .

Trevor: I don't even know what happened , but your rookie wellness just popped up in my maybe . I saw an ad or something like that and I was like oh .

Mark: I need to get back to her .

Trevor: And then you got back to me .

Roxanne Wise: Just got a bugger one more time . Yeah , we , I'm super excited that was not intentional . Well , you know what ? Founder email inboxes are a scary place .

Trevor: Here we are . Yeah , I've got quite a few unopened emails in my inbox and text messages Don't ask me how many unopened I have . It's not good I'm like 300 unopened text messages oftentimes we can skip this part , it's not pretty For my type A personality .

Roxanne Wise: I used to be type A . I don't think I can claim that anymore .

Trevor: Yeah .

Roxanne Wise: Because it's dark . Yeah , it's bad .

Speaker 3: Lots of red , little notifications I do not have that kind of personality .

Mark: So I just declare email bankruptcy like every two to three months , like the ones . I didn't get to .

Roxanne Wise: I'm just like oh sorry yeah , not going back at this point .

Trevor: Yeah , we just brought on like a well , I shouldn't say we just brought a new hire , but one of our new hires . He was like I've been really reaching out to Mark and he's just not getting back to me . So I've texted him , I've slacked it , or I've emailed him , I slacked him . I don't know what to do . I'm like you just got to call him Like , just give him a Go the old fashioned way .

Roxanne Wise: That's what I do now . But I've realized Gen Z doesn't like to answer . It scares them to put them on the spot with a phone call . Yeah , yeah .

Mark: It's funny , I way prefer phone calls .

Roxanne Wise: Same yeah .

Mark: Because a text message , I'll see it and then I will not think about it again .

Roxanne Wise: No . I'll mentally respond or think about I have a hard time , like no , it's just calling , just trying to catch up , that's funny .

Trevor: When my wife calls me , I do the same thing . Like the first thing I answer I'm like what's up ? She's like oh no , I'm just like on my way home to see if you need anything . I'm like , oh , very nice of you . Very nice of you . See , I like to text people , but I like to receive phone calls when people need stuff from me , because I hate the inbox . Yeah , but I'd personally rather just like shoot a text over and say , hey , this is what I need , or what's up .

Mark: So many ways to communicate and we're worse at communicating than ever right .

Trevor: It's so true . We could not be worse with all the amount of opportunities to communicate .

Roxanne Wise: For all the options . Too many options maybe . Dm where did it come through Slack DM did you ?

Mark: email it . So many social networks , and yet we're less social than ever Disconnected yeah . It is a very interesting perspective .

Trevor: We talk about that kind of stuff all the time on the podcast . Well listen , welcome on the podcast . Well , listen , welcome . Tell us about rookie , tell us about you , tell us a little bit about rookie and what brought you to rookie , and let's , let's dive into it so I didn't start rookie on purpose .

Roxanne Wise: I left a rapidly scaling startup . Um , we did zero to 70 million in just shy of four years and I my title was ops , which you know just means firefighter just shy of four years . And I my title was ops , which you know just means firefighter just all of the things , anything that needs to be done . Yeah , so , um , and in that time I had had my second child and he was also having some health problems and like it was just , it was hell on wheels , like it was . It was a lot happening and I made the really , really tough decision to leave a company and a job that I had loved for almost four years . And I didn't have a plan per se . I just knew that I couldn't keep going . It was not sustainable for me any longer . In the pursuit of my mental health and wellness , I quit and started like going for walks and trying to implement water back into my life and my routine and cut back how much caffeine I was consuming and just wanted to feel well balanced again . I didn't feel like myself and I knew that I wasn't giving the best version of myself , either to the company that I was working for or to my kids , my husband , and so again , I just quit without a plan , which I don't necessarily recommend , but it's been okay so far . So I quit and I kind of started doing e-commerce consulting for other local brands and brands that were trying to scale and implement organizational structures and software scaling et cetera . And so I did that for a while and I was also simultaneously having conversations with an old friend and business partner who I knew from advertising my days in an advertising agency . So he , his background is raw material manufacturing and he's kind of a serial entrepreneur , if you will . So he does advertising on the side and he does his hand in a bunch of things . And he was like what are you going to do next ? And I was like I really don't know . He goes , well , you should start your own business . I was like that sounds great . I don't have any like hard skills , like my skills are soft , and like you just kind of throw me at something and I'll figure it out , type thing .

Mark: And anyway , after a few lunches , which actually is a great thing to have if you want to start your own business . Yeah , that is very true . Yeah , and I'm glad that he's Hard skills are overrated .

Roxanne Wise: I'm glad he saw that in me . But I also just struggled with like I don't know , I don't have like a tangible product , no-transcript , felt and more balanced , and I was also frustrated with how some of that was presented , because it seems like there was . It just felt like there was a really big chasm right Like there was CrossFit and like heavy workout forward brands which I don't identify with no one's ever like called me an athlete ever . But I also saw these like really sort of hippie dippy supplements as well , which I also didn't identify with . It just didn't feel approachable and it wasn't branded in a way that I felt like I would shop . I liked them . I thought they were like good products and you know there's decent products out there , but I didn't resonate with any of them . And then , the more I learned about supplements and how they work and um some brands that I had seen or observed for a little while , I was like man there's so much dishonest marketing out there and that's frustrating .

Mark: Do you have a specific example of that , like the straw that broke the camel's back for you with the supplement industry ?

Roxanne Wise: Yeah , that's an interesting one . Yeah , I mean , I think that there was a campaign that was presented as , like , five servings of greens and I was starting to understand more about gut health and the relation to mental health and also what whole foods can do for your body , right Like , and I knew for a fact that what they were offering was not even close . Not even close Like , not even in the realm of what that campaign was . Not even close like , not even in the realm of what that campaign was , and I'm like that's so frustrating especially for someone trying to get into this , the wellness space , and that's a product that you see people use and they're not using anything else , that they're not even getting it . Yeah , and so then they fall off the health wagon because it's expensive , they're not feeling or getting the benefits , they're not understanding , you know . And so and that's the gray area where I'm like man , people are well intended , people have hard earned money and people are taking advantage , and that was enough for me to say hey , I want to be more transparent about what this is and I want to target it for people who don't know better , like I was a year or two ago , where I just felt like , okay , well , I don't understand everything and I can't afford to go buy ashwagandha and lion's mane and my B vitamins , my B complex vitamins , and now I'm in my thirties and they're recommending that I do this and this , and you know what I mean . Like it just starts to be like , oh , I don't even know where to start , um , and then you just get frustrated and then you're back in the swig line , right , like it just it's , it's too many things , especially for someone who doesn't have time or know how to prioritize that first Um . And so that's kind of where the concept of rookie was born , was I really wanted to target people who didn't know better and help them and help them sort of become non-rookies . But then I also felt like I I was a rookie too , not only in health and wellness , when I started out , but also I had just committed career suicide . I left this like scaling , booming company to do what I don't know and like I also felt like very vulnerable too , like I'm , I should be in an established career at this point and I just walked away . What am I doing ? But also I saw the bravery in that too and so I started . So I just the name rookie kind of resonated with me because I was like I have to lean in . I have to lean into not only being a rookie and being that and feeling that that's okay . It doesn't matter how old , how old you are or like what , at what point you are in your journey , whether it's health , wellness , career , whatever . That like the being new is being brave and being rookie doesn't have to be a bad thing .

Mark: Do you know ? What's interesting is , as she's saying this , there is a little bit of some gatekeeping in the supplement world right , and like the health and wellness and nutritional world , there's a little air of superiority . It's kind of like a golf course . Yeah , yeah , right , like getting into golfing is a little intimidating for people . Yeah , because there's all these weird rules and you're , like I , intimidating for people because there's all these weird rules and you're like yeah , I'm just here to have fun .

Trevor: Like what's the big deal ? What do I do ?

Mark: yeah , like what ? What are all these rules and why ? Why can't I just have fun out here ? Natural ingredients yeah right yeah and in the supplement world it's like , oh , you're getting that one yeah yeah , and then there's brand loyalties and you know whatever . So that's interesting that you're saying that .

Trevor: I was just kind of like oh two guesses on what greens company she was talking about .

Roxanne Wise: We'll never know .

Mark: They might be on a lot of podcasts , I don't know . I only say that one because they're under heat right now . Are they really ? Oh , not like , not really It'll blow over , but do you know that dude , brian johnson , who has de-aged himself ? Yeah , yes yes , supposedly de-aged himself with all these weird supplements and spending like a million dollars a month or something like that . Yeah , yeah yeah , he of course came out with some stuff and he's claiming his greens are better and ag1 , oh whoops . Ag1 doesn't do anything that they claim . You didn't say it . You didn't say it , so who knows who it ?

Trevor: is what it is so so tell me this . That is . I like the point you're making . Uh , what I'm curious about is what I love about this is you started a health company ? As someone who doesn't have very much health credentials .

Roxanne Wise: Yeah Well , yeah , I mean , everyone starts somewhere . Yeah , right , but I didn't go at it alone .

Trevor: Yeah , okay .

Roxanne Wise: Yeah , so a business partner . I have two business partners mainly , and they both come from the raw material manufacturing space , but I partnered with someone . He has his PhD in biosciences , so I'm not going at this alone .

Trevor: Totally , and and when ? I ? When I say that I didn't mean necessarily to call you out , because obviously your stuff is clinically backed up by what you're saying right . You have the right people on your team to make sure that this is done right . So it's not like you , just like chopped up some vegetables powderized it and said I think this is going to work .

Roxanne Wise: Threw some claims on there , yeah .

Trevor: But what I love about this is you found a problem . You found a gap in the market , which was a problem you were experiencing , which is I want to get back to health basics . That is really easy and not intimidating , kind of like what Mark is saying , like a golf course , you know , and that's how I was . So how do I create this company ?

Roxanne Wise: Well , like what Mark was saying , right , it was true , because you have this hurdle , you can't just go golf . You could , but you're not going to be as well equipped as if you spend an initial investment . Yeah Right , and that's kind of the health game too .

Mark: Well , there's a psychological hurdle .

Roxanne Wise: Sure .

Mark: Like there's nothing impeding one person who's never golfed to go to a golf course right now . Yeah . And say I'd like to go golfing , can I run some clubs and you can do it , mm-hmm , but there's a very few people that are going to feel comfortable doing that alone .

Trevor: Well , not only that , but this is my wife , my wife's a huge health nut . Yeah , so my wife like that's her thing . It's funny , my dad will . I'll send her some stuff . My dad yeah , my dad's funny because he'll always like tease her about it and he's like it's actually offensive because like that's my golf , that's golf , that's my like . I love health and I'm not doing it just to be healthy , I'm doing it for my pleasure as well , you know . But anyways , what my wife and I argue , and I argue what we talk about all the time is there are , there are three things that are arguably arguably the hardest things to argue , which are religion , because everyone has a specific opinion about what religion and God means to them . Politics Okay , right , it's very hard to argue who is right and who is wrong , Sure .

Roxanne Wise: And personal experiences .

Trevor: Exactly , and health , because there are so many different things when it comes to health . There's not one answer , no because , like we've talked about this a lot , it's like sometimes it's just genetics , right ? I , I my , I think I had a great grandpa who lived till 90 something and he smoked , yeah , all the time .

Roxanne Wise: Yeah , there's also there's there's a lot of fear mongering with it , right , like um and and the shaming aspect too , kind of like you were saying like is one brand better than another or worse off than another ? I mean , and the answer is yes , but also no , because one product that might work for someone might not work for someone else . So you just have all of these really complicated layers . But I think that my biggest frustration with it in the last five or six years and observing and watching , is you have very few people trying to do it correctly anymore . I think that you see a widely unregulated industry that people see as opportunistic , because the barrier of entry as a manufacturer is pretty low . You can enter the space with very with no credentials .

Trevor: I've heard this before .

Roxanne Wise: yes , and also you can go very high margin on it and put not a lot in there and- .

Mark: Throw in some proprietary blends .

Roxanne Wise: Throw in some stuff that people can't really read or understand , and then that and then and yeah , and then price it at like a 300% markup , yeah , and they , but they're really good at content creation , yeah , and that's . I think . What's frustrating for me is like we're not talking sweatshirts , we're not talking . We're talking supplements , right , like we're talking health and wellness . Yes , and people are spending a ton of money on it because it's every single month , it's every single day if you're doing it correctly , Right ? So , like I think that that became the the biggest thing for me that I wanted to to take on and and tackle , because nothing frustrates me more still as a business owner to see these like influencer backed brands essentially kind of blow up overnight and but you know how to read the label and you know that most of their consumers don't yeah , right that becomes the reason that I keep going so literally .

Mark: I think that's interesting too , because there is a big trend well , there's a growing trend of people recognizing the importance of like meals . Yeah . And sharing meals as a family , for example , like having a family shared meal and how important that is to meals and food . And maybe industrialization , industrialization , industrialization has removed that connectedness to your food , right ? So it's just looked as like , oh , you just got to eat , get your calories , you're good to go , so you don't have those experiences anymore . And then the supplement industry just took that and was like , oh well , just , it doesn't matter , like it'll , this is what it's going to do , it's going to get you your protein or whatever . They're claiming , yeah , and they're not , they're not taking maybe like a higher guard to to make sure that what they're giving to people to consume meets a certain kind of standard yeah , it's physiologically changing who those people are yeah it .

Roxanne Wise: People have so many questions about , like how it's not regulated or whatever , and we don't want to get into that because it's so boring . But I think that what it comes down to is , until a company is reported , they can say whatever they want , and so it really comes down to doing the right thing , because it's the right thing to do .

Mark: Because it says right there on the label this product has not been what is . It has not been cleared by the FDA . Cleared by the FDA ? Yeah .

Roxanne Wise: So any claims or whatever aren't , you know , and they just can throw that on there . But you know , having learned firsthand both as a consumer and now as a brand owner , like doing the right thing just because it's the right thing to do is not something that brands do in this space and it's you know , I I've never really like viewed rookie as like the white knight or like you know whatever , but I guess in a way we kind of are right , like I . Just I feel so strongly about not in , you know , not taking stuff out of our product just to improve our profit margin . Yeah , and try to educate people about why it's different and without brand shaming someone else you know what ? I mean like because I just I don't get , I don't want to do that either , I just , but it's hard . Because you want to educate people , yeah , um , but you also are trying to grow your own brand at the same time and I don't know , it just becomes .

Mark: Educators aren't the best sellers .

Roxanne Wise: Yeah .

Mark: So , if all you're doing is trying to educate people , sometimes it's hard to sell . Yeah , yeah . And so how have you balanced that , or what have you learned lately about how do you educate people and also convince them to make the right decision educate people and also convince them to make the right decision .

Roxanne Wise: I think that first you just have to understand that some people don't want to know better , which was very hard for me , right ? Because in my mind , especially initially , like once you know , you know and then you'll do better . But , like , people don't like to be , even if it's not you calling them out , they don't like to be called out , right , they don't like to be , even if it's not you calling them out , they don't like to be called out right .

Speaker 3: They don't want to feel like they were taken advantage of and they don't want to feel like or whatever whatever the reason was that , then , instead of the educator , you're the problem .

Roxanne Wise: You know what I mean , because because , I've identified a problem for them and I don't know . So , like I think that that was the biggest , like I just thought that , like once the light was on people would be like , oh , whoa , but that's only boomers buying margarine .

Mark: Yeah , right , yeah . Or crisco , it's like what ? Yeah , you're still buying margarine . Yeah , yeah , because it's like oh yeah , no , it's good . Yeah , this is what they do not .

Roxanne Wise: Yeah , just buy butter well , and especially like in the supplement space , you would think that people would want to do better , right but also Right . But also they just are like well , this company is this big and you're this big and I like the way it tastes and it's worked for me and I'm just going to keep going , yeah . You're like okay , that's fine . Yeah .

Mark: So I think that Lesson one some people don't want to know better and I think that's a really valuable lesson for every business and marketer , because you're not going to convince everybody .

Roxanne Wise: No .

Mark: Like it doesn't matter how well formed your argument is no . Like there's going to be a good segment of people that are just going to not want to know . Yeah . And that's okay , yeah , okay .

Roxanne Wise: Yeah , and I , I it didn't . That didn't really occur to me , but I was having a conversation about Rookie with my husband and he he was the one that kind of pointed out . I was like people don't want to be called out and that's kind of what it is right Like if they feel like you're calling them out in any way that they've been in the wrong . There's only a handful of people that are going to be self-aware enough to be like oh man , I'm going to make a change . Other people are just like why are you bothering me with this ? I'm fine leave me , you know so , but that was a surprise for me .

Mark: Yeah , sure like it's like a nagging parent yeah , nobody likes to be no one likes to feel like they're getting nagged yeah , well , and there's , and yeah , I know my room's dirty .

Trevor: All right , just go away well , and there's also sunk cost bias , right , which is I've spent so much money doing this , I I and so much time doing this . And not only have I spent so much time and money something I've recognized about people when they go on a health journey they also are very vocal about it too , right , yeah , I'm taking greens now . You got to do this . And so , like when you call somebody out and try to change , like it's a lot more than just them saying , oh cool , I'll switch supplements , like it's changing a lot , it's a little bit more tied to their ethos and identity .

Mark: Yeah , yeah .

Trevor: My lifetime value at Athletic Greens is $1,000 , and I can't stop that now , or else all that is for naught , yeah , you know .

Mark: So that's a whole other argument to make to say why you shouldn't do , that is because there's that sunk cost by and people will just dig their heels in is because there's that sunk cost by and people will just dig their heels in yeah 100% . Once you offend them in a way , most people aren't going to say , oh yeah , you're right , that was dumb of me . It's like no , I'm not dumb .

Trevor: But I will say this part of me just loves the idea I agree with this . I'm just playing slight devil's advocate here and not even playing devil's advocate , but I of just blowing up every single brand that is doing it wrong , yeah and , and calling that . That would be the coolest campaign , but very dangerous at the same time very dangerous , as we've learned from many , many different angles , but it could be really dangerous , but fun very fun , yeah , but I think that .

Roxanne Wise: That's what I like . I've wanted to just call people out right and like it's . It would be so easy to just do comparison charts all day long , but I just don't . I don't want , I don't know one that's . It can be scary . There's , there are people who are very litigious , especially in this space , and it doesn't matter if you're right they're bigger than you are , so you don't really want to go down that road . But also , like I , this is other people's businesses too , and maybe that's where , like I've gone wrong , but like I really have had like moral issues of like I'm not trying to like take anyone down , right , but like what better way to show how your product compares than a comparison chart ?

Trevor: Totally .

Roxanne Wise: But how else do you educate about , especially the discrepancy sometimes between which are huge , without using a specific product in mind ? That people are more familiar with , and so that has been a challenge also Because , yeah , I think that in most instances , rookie is still very much like in its infancy we're still growing it and then you try to like not attack , but like measure yourself against this big brand , and it looks like it's just like a cry for help . I don't know , you know what I mean . You're like , do I really think we're better than Athletic Greens In a lot of ways ? Yeah , right , mainly because of price point , yeah , but also , like , in terms of following we're very little .

Trevor: Yeah .

Roxanne Wise: But also we haven't taken on all this VC money .

Mark: Sure , exactly .

Roxanne Wise: So but like people don't understand all the nuances of of that part of the business owner Right Like , or how a brand gets developed , so so what ?

Mark: So my next question is there's the people that don't want to know . Yeah , now you have these comparisons , you're trying to figure out how to educate . What have you learned about the people who are more curious ? Yeah . What have you learned of how to bring them into the fold through education ?

Roxanne Wise: I think the first big lesson was like going after the rookie demographic was a cute story and maybe not as easy as I was anticipating . Why ? Because you're not going to convince a non-supplement user to be a supplement user . The first ad they see , okay , non-supplement user to be a supplement user ? The first ad they see , yeah , okay . So like we're going actually after first , our primary , our primary audience had to become the , the health enthusiast , which we're called rookie . So like you know what I mean .

Mark: So like because we're trying to win and anyone who knows how to read a label the health enthusiasts can identify and understand what a good product yeah and so I was going to say it's hard to get someone who's not active in that and get them to pay for a premium product that they know they're going to pay over and over again . Yeah , most rookies in any kind of industry . If they're curious in something , they tend to go lower . Yeah Like oh , I'll just try out whatever they want to know .

Roxanne Wise: I'll go in a lower price , point you know again like why are you asking 65 and I'm paying 45 ? Yeah , oh same thing greens yeah , same thing , because I have my greens and whatever , and I'm like no , no , we're seven and a half times the amount of greens . Yeah , not like a small amount , like seven and a half times , plus the digestive enzymes included , plus the digestive enzymes included , plus the probiotics included , plus the clinically studied , but they're like screens yeah so I think , yeah , that one of the biggest like pivots that we had to kind of make was like oh , my primary audience actually can't even be a rookie , not yet . Yeah , right , like because they're gonna take longer to convert . So the quick conversion right are people who already understand your product yeah so I think that was an interesting pivot or a learning point for me too and what have you done to get those people , those those health enthusiasts ?

Trevor: um , because , like you said , it's hard because you're also named rookie .

Roxanne Wise: Yeah , right , yeah well , and I think so . At first we were trying to do product placement or , you know , collaborations and stuff with people who were not health enthusiasts . Um , well , yeah , duh , their audiences are also not really health enthusiasts , um , and so the higher price point , the unknown brand , they're not going to be early adopters . So then I was like , okay , well , we're seeing the easier conversion with health experts , so people who want to try our product and have an audience that trusts what they're saying because they're the health expert . So then we had to kind of make that pivot to people who are already health-minded .

Mark: Awesome . Now . Did the name matter at all in this journey ?

Roxanne Wise: No , it hasn't Was any of these people go .

Mark: oh , rookie yeah .

Roxanne Wise: No , it hasn't , and that's never been a sticking point for us , and people who understand the story kind of , I think , lean into it and like it .

Mark: I like that because some people would make the mistake of trying to rebrand yeah , yeah , like oh , we got to change our name , like we're not for rookies anymore yeah .

Roxanne Wise: I think it was just understand that we had to better tell the story right but like , because , like what you were saying , like , oh you , you're a rookie too like why are you going ? To buy from me what ? Makes me the expert so then we just had to kind of lean into what Rookie meant and the positioning of the brand and then also come forward with like no , we're third-party tested . No , we pay for all of our own independent testing . We , we pay for clinically studied ingredients like we're doing all the right things , um , but the story is kind of like starting over , yeah , yeah may I , you may thank you .

Trevor: So we talked a little bit about this before . We were kind of hot here on the mic , but what so ? We've talked a lot about positioning . I know , you've tell me more like you . So , okay , cool , we realize we can't go for the rookie immediately , because that's going to be really , really challenging right to convert them . So we're going after people who already have that ideology and then they're working their audience , and then maybe you're I'm guessing you're probably running ads with their content as well , potentially . So what are you guys doing now to position yourself in a pretty saturated market , right , which is is the supplement market right so what ? Are you guys doing to position yourselves ?

Roxanne Wise: um , I think that that's the thing that is still in the works , right like what is rookie and what are we trying to be , and who are we trying to be to who ? Right Like is because , again , I what I forgot , I think initially , was that before I was on the beginning of my health journey , I was doing all the wrong things . I wasn't open to hearing what I was doing wrong . So , again like I just trying to take that pivot and then also be aware and try to understand more about who's using our product and what's resonating with them . So from the very , very early stages , our brand , our merch , our everything resonated with people , and so that's the part that I was like . Trying to better understand is like , well , what is different ? About us than what someone else is doing and , um , what people like is sort of that not not too serious approach to health and wellness . Um , and some of just the approachability of it because it is difficult to you know . Try to position yourself as a health and wellness brand , um , and not really focus on physical befores and afters , right , like we're not a brand that's going to show someone's like you know , look at them 30 days ago and look at them now on this diet plan , or you know what I mean , but like , how do you showcase someone's- .

Mark: It's just waterway . Yeah , right .

Roxanne Wise: Um , but how do you showcase ? How do you do that ? But for a brand that's more focused on changes from the inside out , and so we started talking about fitness doesn't have a size , or it's called balance and the debunking right . So we're sort of like going against the grain in health and wellness , and so I think that people liked that fresh take in health and wellness , and so I think that people liked that fresh take . So I was trying to and I still am trying to , figure out what the thread is that people are identifying with and how do we turn that into a full fledged brand , if that makes sense . Yeah . Yeah , Cause like our sweatshirts , we had like a sweatshirt that we did with um . It's like a pizza graphic and the Pete , like the pizza guy , is like lifting weights , and it just was like it's called balance . And like . That's not normally what you would see from a wellness brand . No , right but like I wanted to identify and have that conversation with people , be like , yeah , like fitness doesn't have a size and healthy doesn't have a size , and like you can be a health and wellness person without looking like a certain way . Right like the . The transformation that we're after is the mental one yeah , you don't have to have a six-pack you don't know , right ?

Mark: no , yeah and I think that does resonate with because there are a lot of very healthy people that don't look like a fitness influencer .

Roxanne Wise: Yeah , like me like you like , yeah , like , and that's a lot . Well , a line that we've used too is like healthy brains are the new six-pack . Like how do we lean into not being a traditional wellness brand and , and I think that so that story is resonating with people but again like , how do we make that a full-fledged brand and then also have credentials and also talk about third-party testing and also keep it approachable ? yeah , yeah , there's something that serious product with an unserious brand , yeah , yeah , well , I shouldn't say unserious , but uh approachable , approachable , yeah , yeah , yeah yeah , just very different that just because we are trying to talk about it in ways that are dumbed down or approachable or like what even are adaptogens or what even is ashwagandha like , doesn't mean that we don't know what we're talking about ?

Trevor: Yeah , we talk a lot about we might've talked about this on the last podcast , or maybe two podcasts ago which is , um and I know you bring this up a lot which is people make buying decisions based off of emotions and then they back it up and justify based on logic , Right , and I think what you're saying is this like this relatability piece is the emotional piece and the justification is these credentials behind it .

Mark: Yeah , Well , because we also know in the supplement industry that brand loyalty is very hard to come by . Yeah yeah , People are jumping like crazy Because there's not a lot of emotional connection to a brand . It's often just like oh , it's what I got at GNC . People get a little slutty with supplement brands . Sometimes it's a race to the bottom with price , but the approachability making it like you're saying , creating an emotional connection , and then you can always justify it with the seriousness of the product . Yeah , with logic .

Roxanne Wise: Yeah , that's been the struggle right . It's just like finding that balance and telling that story so that it's not over overtly one over the other that it has to be equally both Um , and that's hard to do , especially when you're a team of one , which I was for a really long time and we're still a very lean team . Um , but like , how do I be this and also bring the seriousness of the product ? Yeah , yeah .

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Roxanne Wise: oh man , it's , it's a daily struggle , yeah , yeah yeah , what's this ?

Trevor: why is it a struggle ? Because I I'm sure a lot of people are going to relate to this .

Roxanne Wise: Yeah , it's a struggle because I my entire career has been building other people's brands and having success doing it , totally happy to be in the background but sort of riding not the coattails but kind of right like of their success . But I also wanted to struggle with like being recognized for the work that I was putting in . I don't want to be the face of this brand , but also I understand that , like I'm the brand owner , there's not ever going to be a replacement for me or my why and why I started it . But also I've got three kids at home and creating content doesn't come naturally to me . When you're in pulled in so many different directions for your brand , it's kind of the last thing that I prioritize , which is the wrong thing to do . But also like there's only so many ways that I can go each day , like there's only so many hours yeah , there's only so many hours . There's only so many ways that I can go each day , like there's only so many hours yeah there's only so many hours .

Trevor: There's only so many things that I can get done and your mom that changes everything too , right , yeah , and so much that has been , that's been my struggle is like I don't feel um comfortable making content when my kid is crying .

Roxanne Wise: I don't think to pull out my camera and like show me doctoring their band . You know what I mean . Like I just I'm like , oh , I should have like , because everything is content . That's what people say Right , like everything is content . What do you do in a day ?

Mark: But I'm like yeah , it's hard because everything's content , but I think maybe to summarize it , and I don't want to put words in your mouth- but , you don't want your daily life to become performative no yeah like .

Roxanne Wise: So you're okay showing like real stuff , but it's like , okay , like I don't want to performatively film taking care of my kid , like when he like scrapes his knee or something specifically in this case , I've really struggled with being a brand owner and wanting to influence people to buy your product . Yes . Which I say influence because there are influencers that are authentic and raw and real and you know . But we've also seen the development of influencers where it's like I don't believe a word you're saying and you do not live in reality . I don't know where you're living , but like it's not where I live . Yeah you do not live in reality . I don't know where you're living , but like it's not where I live . And so , again , like I don't want people to feel influenced by me necessarily , Like I want them to come to the conclusion on their own , but like you , but that's not how people work and they don't want that from me either . They want me to tell them what to do or what you know what I mean , or whatever . So it's like I'm not totally comfortable doing content creation . I don't really want them to do it because I've influenced them or whatever right like . So it's been this issue of like I just wanted to be , I wanted when we started , I wanted to I and I've seen I've seen brands work like this , like the product was good and the brand was beautiful and they flew off right that has not . That has not been our story . Like I do think our brand is beautiful and I work , like we worked hard on it and I think I know the product is good and it works , but that's not enough anymore .

Mark: Yeah .

Roxanne Wise: Especially in this space .

Mark: So I love what you're saying . Can I just jump in really quick ? Yeah please . It almost sounds like you think selling is dirty .

Roxanne Wise: I mean yeah , kind of .

Mark: Yeah , I just , and I say that because most people think that . Yeah . That's why salespeople are some of the highest paid people in companies . Yeah Is because it takes a personal connection and they have to sell something , even if the product's great . Like people don't realize this At SaaS companies and software companies . I don't think the daily person understands like , hey , the sales guys are the ones making the most money in that company . Yeah , and there's a reason for that . It's because A it doesn't matter how great your product is , it has to be sold . Yeah . And B .

Roxanne Wise: People aren't comfortable yeah , asking for someone to say okay , now give me your money . You have to live in this like which , as a brand owner , you you'll you get and understand like you have to live this certain amount of delusion , like you have to be delusional just a little bit right to think that , like no , my product is the best . It's like I , I , our product is great . Is it the best ? Who knows ?

Mark: There's some margins of error there , I don't know .

Roxanne Wise: Well , yeah , because it may not be the best for you . Why ? Because of your genetics or because of the way that you absorb iron , or that you don't need this type of supplement ? You know what I mean . Like so , but you have to wake up every day and think like no , we are the only ones that deserve shelf space , and I just don't . I have never been that person . Like I , I prefer to be like more authentic or not . You know what I mean . Not to say that other people aren't , but like I just want the . I want the conversation to feel personal and so taking this like mass approach of like no , like we are the best and we deserve to be , you know what I mean . It has been hard for me because , I do think that our product is much , much better than a lot of other things out there . But also I don't want to step on any toes or like take up space . You know what I mean .

Mark: Like you do you and I think you're going through . A lot of people go through when they sit out and start a business . They're not setting out to start a business to sell . Yeah . They're setting out to start and start a product or solve a problem . Yeah . But then it requires selling . Yeah , so it's not this natural jump for most people to be like yeah , okay . So now how do I tell everyone this is the best thing , go buy it yeah , I don't want to . How do I say ? That , yeah , yeah yeah .

Trevor: I think the beauty , though , of what you're , the struggle that you're going through is , is real , and we see it a lot , but the beauty here is you are selling something that is very good , right , yeah ? And so , yes , is it the best ? Is it the best , like you said ? No one will ever actually know that , because every human being is biologically different , but is it ?

Roxanne Wise: are we fundamentally better than a lot of yeah , and are you ?

Trevor: fundamentally telling the truth in your stories , right , right ? And if the answer is yes , then you actually , from a content creation perspective , and I'm guessing , um , are you Gen Z or are you millennial ? You've said Gen Z a lot , so I'm guessing you're more millennial ?

Roxanne Wise: Yeah , I don't know . I .

Trevor: I don't know , I , I don't know . I won't ask what your age is , but you , I'm 37 , okay , so you're millennial , right ? So I'm 36 younger , millennial , yeah , you're millennial . And the problem with us millennials is we didn't grow up with social media , right , right , and so we didn't grow up put like putting a camera in front of your face , if you ever took a picture some would argue that's not a problem , that was a good thing . But yeah , yeah like I I would have I would have felt if I took a selfie at age 18 . I would have felt like somebody would have punched me right like that's how . That's how I felt .

Mark: But yeah , the gen z . Look at this loser taking a picture of himself but .

Trevor: But that has become such a common thing and and people who are in that generation , they , they understand that content creation is less about selling and more about storytelling . But us millennials , when we think of content creation , we think of selling , because in 2016 and 2017 , we'd post a picture , a beautiful picture , on a bridge , holding a supplement that had nothing to do with the bridge or the scenery , and you sold a million dollars of it . Yeah Right , and so content a million dollars of it , yeah Right . And so content creation for millennials was selling . Yeah . But Gen Z and this is the beauty of Gen Z is they don't look at content creation as selling , they look at content creation as storytelling . And then what happens is people get a liking to you , right , right , and they learn different things about you . But then you're also educating throughout the process . And then , as somebody says , oh , I need to fix my health journey , I like roxanne a lot yeah you know and and so , and so what's happened is you've sold them on you and then they go to buy your product , and that's oftentimes what what happens .

Mark: But that's all a great salesman does . Yeah , that's what I want to illustrate .

Trevor: It's just a little bit of a different avenue than what we've been used to .

Mark: The greatest salesmen that go into big boardrooms and make the biggest deals are the ones that establish personal relations quickly yeah . And they're relatable and people want to buy from them . Yeah , it's not that they don't . That's not like . A good salesman isn't someone who's selling a product that's so great that they want the product that bad . It's usually like I like this guy .

Roxanne Wise: Well , I always say like I'm so much better and more comfortable in person than I am behind the camera , Like I prefer this format than I prefer getting on and like doing any type of content , because I prefer a personal connection and I mean , I think there's like six years or more of my marriage that's not even documented . Why ? Because , like , I just don't take pictures of us . I take pictures of my kids or I take pictures of the bridge , like you said yeah , we're the same way .

Mark: Yeah , we're the same way , but I'm like I don't . They say that's a very healthy marriage .

Roxanne Wise: It doesn't , yeah , do .

Mark: I have a single picture of your mouth . You're doing really well .

Roxanne Wise: There's some study that says that People would have no idea if we're still married or not , because we're just like it's just the kids . But yeah , like I just I don't enjoy that part of it . But I think that , like , for me personally it's just being comfortable with the fact that , like I don't have to do aesthetic content . But that's what I was like when social media was big when I was observing it it was right , so it's for me . It's like oh , I didn't , I'll delete it because like I wasn't dressed , or like I'll get dressed this afternoon , but then I'm like telling you know , my team , I'm like I don't , my kids are at home . Now I can film this from my car if you want . There's no , but maybe I should just do it at home when it's like in the chaos . I don't , I don't have the answers for that , you know , but like I prefer this format , I prefer the in-person so much more . But people want the content . They want the content , they want the story , they want behind the scenes and I struggle with like how much of my kids should I show and I overthink everything .

Trevor: Yeah , for sure . But yeah , as a parent you should .

Roxanne Wise: Yeah , but I'm like you want to see what I ate for breakfast . It was leftover scrambled eggs and half of his pancake . But , then also , I'm supposed to be this health and wellness person . You know what I mean , but yeah , I don't always get in my protein shake . I'm sometimes just cleaning up what they left and then , I'm out the door , so it's both .

Mark: And maybe that's what people want to see too , right .

Roxanne Wise: Yeah , maybe . Well , I love my realistic day in the life .

Mark: I was going to say . What I love that you're doing here , though , is you have your trusty colleague here , right . Yeah . And maybe there's a way to make this like because if you're having someone that's helping you get that content , like because if you're having someone that's helping you get that content . Yeah , then you can do things like this . No , we've joked , I'm like right and you can still get that information while I'm doing .

Roxanne Wise: Yeah , yeah because , yeah , setting up the tripod isn't like my first thought . I'm like , oh , I guess I should have filmed that .

Trevor: Yeah , I don't know , yeah , I get the same way . Like , yeah , I'm the same way , but but here's the beauty , the the reason why we're like we're continuing to stumble down this path as we're like it's almost like a therapy slash consulting session we're all giving each other here , um , but the reason why I'm wanting to stick with it and why I've loved the conversation is because I think what's happening right now is all of us are all of us have entered a saturated market . Yeah , like everyone thinks their market is the most saturated . Yeah , it's just facts what it is , and the reason why that is is because it's become easier than it ever has to start companies . Like you said , like anyone can start a supplement company yeah , you do not need the credentials , no , you call your buddy and he knows exactly what to do . I know three people in my phone book right now who could help me start a supplement company just like that and again like unless they're saying they're third-party tested , there's no requirements yes , exactly and so , unless you're very involved in the manufacturing process , like you could say , okay , we ordered , we want magnesium bisglycinate and we want this form of whatever .

Roxanne Wise: They're not bound to use it unless you have contracts in place to say , hey , we're sourcing from this person and this is the amount we're putting in totally and then like that's the scary part that people don't realize is like they could be , like she won't know .

Trevor: Let's just use the magnesium we have left over from this client and call it good well , mark , and I own a jewelry company , women's jewelry wildly saturated , yeah , and and really challenging because , like , for example , you're wearing bracelets , yeah , and you're wearing diamond ring . Like that diamond ring and those bracelets could come from the exact same place . Yeah . Right , that diamond ring could be thousands of dollars , or they make those now where it's a couple hundred dollars .

Roxanne Wise: Yeah , you know . No , I have questions about mine for sure .

Trevor: It is a very challenging industry , and so the reason why I'm bringing this up is because you if if if you are a brand and you want to win in 2024 , you do have to find a way to stand out .

Roxanne Wise: Yeah , and positioning and the content you create . Yeah , it's not 2011 and it is actually everything right .

Trevor: Yes , you have to have a great product . You you really need to , because if it's not a good product , you're not going to win . But we do know some brands who have have , who have extremely great content , that have won and I would argue that's also not true mediocre products .

Roxanne Wise: There are some really bad products out there , but it's starting . But yes , there is but the reason why ?

Trevor: the reason why , yeah , like they're winning , but what we don't understand is what their profits are . That's true , right , yeah , so , yes , they're winning , but what we don't understand is what their profits are . That's true , Right yeah . So yes , they're winning .

Roxanne Wise: but are they winning ?

Trevor: Right , that's the big question .

Roxanne Wise: What's their customer turnover rate ? What's their retention rate ? What are their margins ? Like how much ?

Mark: are they ?

Roxanne Wise: paying to acquire new customers .

Mark: Are they VC backed Right yeah ? Are they burning through ? Capital to get to a certain growth point , exactly point and are they going to actually make it ?

Trevor: And most of us don't really see that . So we see the big brands and we're like they're crushing it and it's like actually , Remember Casper . Casper Allbirds . What study came out ? They were losing like 40 million a year .

Roxanne Wise: No , I mean , you're right , nothing is ever as it seems . Even that supplement company Careof , I think , shuttered their doors this week and they were massive , but like , obviously , I think , shuttered their doors this week and they were , you know , massive , but like , obviously it's just not as great as it seemed . Not as great as it seemed . Yeah , yeah . But the if you're spending more than you're making . It's not a winning but the relatability thing .

Mark: I think we love that you've been honest and open about that , because I everyone struggles with it . Yeah . It's a natural struggle . Nobody wants to be well , some people do . Nobody wants to be in the camera all day or showcasing certain things or like , oh , why do people want to see this ? It's just like me . Yeah . But that is actually funny enough . What people want to see , reality TV kind of set that stage . Yeah . People want to see into the normal life and relatability of somebody . Yeah , and maybe I was just thinking about new girl . For some reason , I'm like is that why jess is so lovable ?

Trevor: because she's just so authentic . Yeah , like people love the character . Did you watch new girl ? Yeah , everyone did right yeah , everyone likes new girl . I'm actually re-watching it right now , are you ?

Mark: yeah , but everyone loves jess , because she's just kind of going through like they love her because of all of her problems .

Roxanne Wise: Yeah , yeah , that she's Well and it's one thing to say it and then it's another to live it right , exactly . No one relates to other people's strengths . Literally no one looks at other people and they're like , oh , I relate to that so hard , he's so good at that .

Trevor: Yeah , yeah , that's a good point .

Roxanne Wise: You relate to people's weaknesses but , it's hard to put your weaknesses out there . Yeah , and . But it's hard to put your weaknesses out there . Yeah , and again , like when you're trying to bring the credentials and the authoritative point of view as a supplement brand , like I'm like , how much should I show people Because , like , we've made mistakes , you know ? So yeah . Yeah , that's interesting . You want to have some sort of like level of authority and like know what you're talking about and like , hey look , we are a mess , but the supplements are science-packed okay .

Mark: They are third-party tested . Maybe that's the branding . Yeah , I'm a mess , but my supplements are not .

Roxanne Wise: I am a mess , but we paid for the testing , so , but yeah , but it is hard because I'm trying to , like , maintain a level of point of view , so maybe this podcast ruins me , we don't know . But we , I mean we have . We've talked about all these different things Like let's do a whole series of rookie tries . Okay , let's go get our asses kicked in a weight class . Let's go do sweaty sauna , right ? Or high fitness , or stuff that you're like . I don't know if that's for me . But like maybe it's not , I don't know , but like let's go try it and document it , because that's the hurdle that people are facing . But again , I need to prioritize that over , sometimes , the customer service , inbox or you know all the other things . But I do think that that's what we've always wanted to bring to the brand . Totally Is like look , yeah , we're a serious company that doesn't take life too serious .

Mark: Yeah , and that all starts with you too . Yeah . Right Like we're a serious , not a serious , we're a serious company , but we're approachable and relatable because of you yeah because , like we've loved talking with you , like it's obvious that you can relate to people very easily . Like you said , one-on-one in person , it's easy to relate to people . Yeah , that's just that when you get that black box , like I don't , don't like doing it , no yeah .

Trevor: I would much rather do things like this and the biggest piece is like I am a huge moment guy , yeah Right , like it's not a like that's what I've loved . Like she's been taking video of us . I'm like , yes , will you text me that ? Yeah , yeah , because I would have forgot to ask somebody to do it .

Roxanne Wise: Right , set my own tripod up to get a little b-roll of this so I can post about it later , etc . Yeah , I mean it's like it is a crazy . It's just this crazy because , like I all I I told my business partner I think just like a couple days ago I was like I feel gaslit by my own brand yeah , which is kind of a hard , like people tell you how beautiful it is and they tell you how relatable you are in person , and I'm like but what is the disconnect then ? right , because like they tell you how amazing the product is , how well it works , how good it tastes , but then you're like it's falling apart somewhere yeah not falling apart but like we're still trying , why are we not scaling to the moon ? Yeah , exactly and so like . But it's also the same with like content creation , like I think I'm more enjoyable in person , I don't know , but like you get on the , you get on do stories and you're like , I look like what I sound like .

Mark: Yeah , what you told us . What has the highest engagement for you ?

Roxanne Wise: Yeah , it's the stuff that has me in it .

Mark: And it's been talking about a specific kind of part of your day . It does have to do with the product Like do you know ?

Roxanne Wise: It's a little bit of everything . Not one thing performs better and always , but I think that , think that yeah , it's always when we're not taking it too serious like the . The stuff that organically does the best is like I was too excited about these sweatshirts so we ordered and I took a picture of them in the box in my driveway and posted it and people were like you know what I mean and that performed way better than like the other three posts that we worked really hard on . Yeah , Like storyboarding , yeah , but again like it's just it's balancing how much behind the scenes and raw content with like the story you're trying to tell .

Trevor: Yeah .

Roxanne Wise: Which is like no , like we have magnesium and we have all of this good stuff and we have . You know how do you do that and teach people about it and keep the level of authority and also be like we're a shit show .

Mark: Yeah , see , I just wondered though , and , by the way , just so , if anyone's listening to this , you know Rookie's doing a great job . It's just fun to diagnose and talk about things because , again , we know companies are doing 10 to 50 million that are still struggling with these kinds of things .

Trevor: It doesn't really matter where they're at 100 billion companies , 100 million companies are still having these questions and also still having a hard time committing to a good content creation strategy or a face of the brand . Yeah , In fact I would say 99% of them do .

Roxanne Wise: I think you're going to be in trouble if you ever stop talking about it . Yeah . Because then you've just lost touch with your brand . Why are people buying in the first place ? Right , like if you think you have it all figured out , that's like when you're going to start losing people . I think that you have to constantly be after , like , what are your clients trying to tell you ? What are your customers saying ? So I hope that we don't ever lose . That part of us is like what could we be doing better ? Not like a overly hungry like we're never going to be satisfied type way . Just like give me feedback . Like you know what I mean . Like if you're in a friendship right , Like it's an active thing that you need to be a part of and that's going to be a living , breathing thing that you're interacting with . Not like , yeah , this is the brand I don't know . Throw it up , See what people say .

Mark: Well , that's what I love about this story , especially because you started off thinking , oh , like these rookies , they need help . Yeah , and then it ended up being the experts these rookies do not want help .

Roxanne Wise: These rookies don't want help but these experts are buying the help yeah , they need the

Mark: help . They just don't want the help . They'll want it eventually .

Trevor: Well , you're a mom , though I'm a mom you know you deal with this stuff all the time , like you know your kids need something , but they don't want it .

Roxanne Wise: Yeah , no , being gaslit on a daily basis , yeah , that's life .

Trevor: That's just life right , oh yeah .

Mark: My two , my four year old now he's a he's hard to argue with , but the fact that you were willing to pivot , yeah , and say early adopters , yeah , but I still want to bring other people into the fold , and that you're evolving , this story shows success , so we literally left my house right and I , and as we walked out I said I will kill this brand and do it all over again if that's what it needs .

Roxanne Wise: Like I , we will phoenix from the ashes . This thing like we just I because I want to know what works and . I want to know what people want from us , and but that's so hard because , like you , have to stay somewhat consistent right . Because people aren't just going to adopt your brand overnight . So having confidence in the product you're bringing , having confidence in the branding , the positioning , but also being open for feedback , is a hard line to have , right Because like . I'm not going to reformulate everythingulate everything . Why ? because it is a good product and it does stand up to the marketplace and it does , objectively , taste good to everybody . Of course , not ever , but like there's only so much right , but like if people are telling you this product is not that it's not working , but like the clientele or customer base doesn't want it is the balance we're trying to find . Yeah , so like the positioning of the brand , but also like , yeah , I will , I would kill my entire lineup of product if , if people would tell me better what they wanted . Yeah , um , there's nothing that I'm married to if we're doing it wrong .

Mark: Right .

Roxanne Wise: Right , but also I do know that we have a good product . So it's like you have to be somewhat rigid in the offering and somewhat rigid in like the story , but also open for people's feedback . And so , again , I think it's been two years of that Like OK , I don't know , maybe this isn't working , maybe the product isn't needed , and I think we have a better offer , a better understanding of what that is now . But , it's taken two years to get there of like OK , well , just it is a good product and also people aren't asking for it .

Trevor: So it's a good lesson that , like things , just don't happen overnight too .

Mark: No , yes .

Trevor: There's no such thing as an overnight success Right . Usually , overnight successes are 12 years in the making . That seem like an overnight success .

Roxanne Wise: Yeah , to the outsider looking in but there's also brands that have entered the space , right like that , since rookie launched , but if you look at the audience they brought with them or who started it , right like there's a courtney kardashian brand , yeah , and they launched well after rookie and of course she's skyrocketed . But , like anybody who knows labels , knows that it's not like the best of the best product .

Mark: Yeah .

Roxanne Wise: So again , like yes , there there , but there are , but I Courtney herself is not an overnight sensation . Sure Right , so like but again like her product line kind of was and all of a sudden she entered all these brands .

Mark: That the influencer brand is still going to be a thing and I think it will always be a thing . But people want relatability , yeah , and people want to relate to someone that they can trust , that also they understand , like hey , for example , we we saw this fitness brand and their best performing ad wasn't the face of the brand . Yeah . It was just this regular old person , yeah , who saw results . Right , that was the best selling ad by a country mile . All the stuff with the perfect bodies didn't work . It was the regular person .

Roxanne Wise: Because that's been seen and done . Yeah .

Mark: Everyone's seen it . Yeah , and because of celebrity culture and social media , you see that all day . It's like okay , cool , kim Kardashian , whatever , like , okay , like I don't have 10 hours to do makeup and work out . Yeah , so who can I relate to ? Yeah , I'm talking like it's me . Can't relate with her .

Trevor: I mean , you could ? I still haven't mastered contouring , so you could totally relate , okay . Well , listen , we've been chatting for a while , so one last question for you what's the biggest mistake ? You're seeing other brands make right now . You had to identify one thing .

Roxanne Wise: Biggest mistake . One thing I mean I think we touched on it I think that losing relatability . So I think that , again , like you , have a lot of brands who got success that don't know how they got there . It just happened , which sounds lovely , but then they lost their why . Yeah , and I think that there's just not enough money or funding in the world to take on that problem . And I think that that's , you know , depending on the vertical , depending on what space you've chosen to enter , it is a problem that affects every business . So , yeah , I think that losing relatability , I think losing their why , is something that people do all the time .

Mark: Yeah , we see that all the time we agree . Yeah , unfortunately , that's an incredible take . Yes , it is Well .

Trevor: thank you so much .

Roxanne Wise: Thank you , this has been awesome .

Trevor: Where can people find Rookie ?

Roxanne Wise: Rookiewellnesscom is the best place to find us . We're doing a nationwide launch in Sprouts Marketplace .

Trevor: Oh , congrats , oh congrats , that's awesome . Next month .

Roxanne Wise: So yeah , hopefully they're soon . Sprouts has big plans , yeah .

Trevor: Yeah , I like Sprouts a lot . They got good products there .

Mark: I don't have any Sprout by my house .

Trevor: We don't either , but If I did , they have those midday squares . Have you ever had midday squares before ? Yeah , those are my favorites .

Roxanne Wise: I mean if you don't follow them on social ?

Trevor: you're missing out Speaking of good content .

Roxanne Wise: Speaking of good content , yeah , I don't think that's one that'll work for me , but it's a really , really interesting incredible story .

Trevor: Absolutely .

Roxanne Wise: Yeah , who do you want to be when you grow up ? Midday squares .

Trevor: Yeah , Content Exactly Well . Thank you so much . We appreciate you coming on .

Roxanne Wise: Yeah , thanks for having me .

Trevor: Go check out RookieWellnesscom .

Roxanne Wise: Thank you yeah .

Trevor: Thank you so much and thank you everybody for listening and we will see you guys next week . Thank you so much for listening to the Unstoppable Marketer Podcast . Please go rate and subscribe the podcast , whether it's good or bad . We want to hear from you because we always want to make this podcast better . If you want to get in touch with me or give me any direct feedback , please go follow me and get in touch with me . I am at the Trevor Crump on both Instagram and TikTok . Thank you , and we will see you next week .